Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Pyrrho · 05-29-2003, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Okay Rational, time for you to step in and save me. I think you should be given the benefit of the doubt and Pyrrho hasn't any doubt. Show us how "faith based" claims aren't idiotic. Don't make me look bad, kiddo.

Do not blame "Rational BAC" for your unwillingness to accept the conclusion to which all of the evidence points. I don't know how to ask this in a manner that will avoid the possibility of giving offence, so I will simply be direct. When you refuse to believe that people are irrational, when your own experience points directly to this conclusion, and when it is the most natural, and, indeed, the only conclusion that one can come to that makes any sense at all, how are you being different from those who believe in anything else, simply because they want to believe? How do you explain your belief in the rationality of people, other than that it is "faith based"?

PopeInTheWoods · 05-29-2003, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
OK--I was wrong---

-- I thought that this thread had to end up very short because what I stated was undebateable. Turns out that atheists can debate any damned thing. Am I really surprised about that?

Okay, Mr. .07 (go ahead, ask me why I call you that). As I stated, and in answer to your OP, I'm mostly prepared to consider you a xian. I simply wanted more info on your beliefs concerning an afterlife. Specifically... Who benefits from Jesus's example? How does one attain a favorable afterlife? What happens to those that don't meet these qualifications?

Andy

Rational BAC · 05-29-2003, 10:09 PM

Pope---

To try and answer that one, honestly---------I haven't a clue. Not part of my core beliefs. Which simply means that you are talking about the rational part of my beliefs. That part is still unsettled.

A quicky on my rational part that I hold for today----------I have no clue as to who will make it to heaven or not. My personal preference would be that all good people should get into heaven---and that includes atheists, and Buddhists, and Shintoists and Jews and Muslims and non- born aginners and any damn body else who has led a moral life. St Paul ---and any other part added on to the very simple 4 Gospels of the New Testament--------sort of stuck together--- long after the fact--- by committee by the Council of Nicea-- be damned.

I tend to cherry pick out all the usual fundamentalist exclusionary parts of the Bible as far as going to heaven is concerned. Most of the exclusion comes from St Paul I think---and most of the time I think St Paul was a serious nut case.

The only thing of value that Paul did was to extend a cult of Judaism to the Gentiles and on and on until there are now 2 billion adherants. Was that truly a good thing for the very simple and very practical ideas of Jesus Christ? Don't know for sure, but seriously doubt it.

As far as hell is concerned---------again not part of my core beliefs. I don't think that there is a hell, ---a firey sulphuric hell-----sounds awfully medieval to me. Maybe a purgatory kind of thing though. Give a little time to reflect on the absolutely shitty life some people led for those people to realize that. -------But then--this is all conjecture and not part of my core beliefs.

Got me on the hell thing. I really don't know.

Biff the unclean · 05-29-2003, 11:15 PM

Pyrrho How do you explain your belief in the rationality of people, other than that it is "faith based"?

Sigh.
Because I was working under the misapprehension that "nobody could possibly be that stupid." I mean, how can a brain that produced so little electricity actually allow the person to type?
I still might be able to make a case that somebody suffering from the medieval fantasy/delusion that emotions are something magical is mentally ill and not necessarily an idiot. But I won't push it, "Rational" let me down big time "My core belief system is irrational ---that I will admit openly. But so should you also openly admit that some of the biggest and MOST IMPORTANT parts of your lives are also irrational, unexplainable in any way at all" Oh brother, so dumb on so, so, many levels.

So I would like to say formally and in front of the entire board, with all humility, that Pyrrho is abundantly correct. And I--as it has been demonstrated so clearly--am wrong. "Faith based" means just what it seems to mean. It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck and it waddles like an idiot duck. I freely admit, Pyrrho knows a duck when he sees one.

PopeInTheWoods · 05-29-2003, 11:17 PM

Thanks for the straightforward response, .07. You sound like a xian to me (though there are many Baptists out there who would probably disagree

).

Andy

Rational BAC · 05-30-2003, 12:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Pyrrho How do you explain your belief in the rationality of people, other than that it is "faith based"?

Sigh.
Because I was working under the misapprehension that "nobody could possibly be that stupid." I mean, how can a brain that produced so little electricity actually allow the person to type?
I still might be able to make a case that somebody suffering from the medieval fantasy/delusion that emotions are something magical is mentally ill and not necessarily an idiot. But I won't push it, "Rational" let me down big time "My core belief system is irrational ---that I will admit openly. But so should you also openly admit that some of the biggest and MOST IMPORTANT parts of your lives are also irrational, unexplainable in any way at all" Oh brother, so dumb on so, so, many levels.

So I would like to say formally and in front of the entire board, with all humility, that Pyrrho is abundantly correct. And I--as it has been demonstrated so clearly--am wrong. "Faith based" means just what it seems to mean. It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck and it waddles like an idiot duck. I freely admit, Pyrrho knows a duck when he sees one.

Biff---

Of course you could take the time to explain your "levels"

Duck or no duck --I think you dodged this one.

Explain rationally your first kiss. Explain rationally the first time you fell in love. If you have children, then explain rationally how you loved them and promised in your heart (no--not that very efficient pump) that you would raise them and care for them until they were "of age"--and if necessary longer.

Explain the beauty that you felt in your heart at watching an absolutely gorgeous sunset. Or a magnificent sunrise.

Explain anything at all that you felt within yourself that you could not really explain in any sort of "rational way" Try to analyse it. Try to do it scientifically. Examine it under a microscope. You will find nothing at all to explain your "feeling". Because none of those feelings can be analysed in any kind of scientific way. They just come from within. And we all know that don't we?

I say you have let me down BIG TIME. You dodged it. Not me. You let all of us down. Admit it

Pyrrho · 05-30-2003, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Biff the unclean
Pyrrho How do you explain your belief in the rationality of people, other than that it is "faith based"?

Sigh.
Because I was working under the misapprehension that "nobody could possibly be that stupid." I mean, how can a brain that produced so little electricity actually allow the person to type?
I still might be able to make a case that somebody suffering from the medieval fantasy/delusion that emotions are something magical is mentally ill and not necessarily an idiot. But I won't push it, "Rational" let me down big time "My core belief system is irrational ---that I will admit openly. But so should you also openly admit that some of the biggest and MOST IMPORTANT parts of your lives are also irrational, unexplainable in any way at all" Oh brother, so dumb on so, so, many levels.

So I would like to say formally and in front of the entire board, with all humility, that Pyrrho is abundantly correct. And I--as it has been demonstrated so clearly--am wrong. "Faith based" means just what it seems to mean. It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck and it waddles like an idiot duck. I freely admit, Pyrrho knows a duck when he sees one.

I hope I have not offended you with any of my remarks, as that was not my intention. For what it is worth, I am truly sorry that people are as stupid as they appear to be. I wish they were otherwise, but wishing does not change them.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 05-30-2003, 12:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
[B]OK--I was wrong---

-- I thought that this thread had to end up very short because what I stated was undebateable. Turns out that atheists can debate any damned thing. Am I really surprised about that? [b]

Well the main reason people are debating is the "faith-based" concept you speak of is so incredibly absurd to atheists.

OK ---Try this-- Not everything on earth is rational or is supposed to be. Some things come from deep within everyone's heart (even the heart of atheists---and don't give me that crap about the heart just being a very efficient pump)

Oh, so you're talking about emotions and things within your mind...Like say, schizophrenia?

All you completely rational thinking atheists who are sure that science can explain everything, analyse to great depths everything that occurs on Earth and come up with scientific theories to explain everything all so perfectly rationally. ------

Good strawman, but it would be a stupid scientist indeed who would think themselves capable of explaining every single thing in the entire universe. What we have noticed, of course, is that almost all things that used to be unexplainable now have been explained. And the trend shows no signs of stopping any time soon.

-----Explain me this---What is love? The first love you had in your life? How beautiful and wondrously new the feeling was? What is the very deep love for your wife or husband? What is the all- giving love for your children that you can sacrifice so much for their benefit? ---------- Without in any way counting up on a calculator the costs/benefit ratio?

Love: An emotion evolved through the course of human history because humans who formed family units survived better than humans who did not.

Can you explain any of these things from a left brained very logical viewpoint? Can you analyse so succinctly and so scientifically acceptable any of these emotions?

Actually, yes, I just did. Though you'll have to talk to a neurobiologist for the mechanics of love.

Can you put any of these under a microscope and determine cause and effect or real rational reasons for any of these very intangible feelings that all humans (including atheists) have?

Well, you obviously can't put an intangible concept under a microscope. However, you can easily explain what the chemical processes are and why they occur and why they evolved. Which is, of course, a rational process.

I don't think you can. Some things in human life are irrational, not subject to left brained scrutiny under a microscope. But we all have these very "irrational" feelings don't we?----------even atheists.

A "thing" can't be irrational. Irrational only really applies to arguments or people putting forth arguments. Running your life according to your emotions can be very irrational, but since our brains are run by these chemical processes it is impossible to avoid. If I could, however, I would certainly make sure I didn't let my brain be run by irrational negative emotions. If I had a choice, I would choose not to get upset/sad/angry/etc...

My core belief system is irrational ---that I will admit openly. But so should you also openly admit that some of the biggest and MOST IMPORTANT parts of your lives are also irrational, unexplainable in any way at all.-------------except that "something deep within your heart (not the pump) made you feel certain things and act on these things that were completely irrational.

I'm glad I got you to admit your beliefs are irrational, RBAC. I would say, however, that absolutely none of the most important things in my life are unexplainable. And I wouldn't consider my love life irrational, either. So I'm afraid I'm just not buying these thigns you claim I must concede.

I stand by my core beliefs in the same way. Irrational --YES Unexplainable---YES. A delight to me in the same way that your first kiss was somehow and unexplainably delightful and the first time you fell in love blew you away----YES.

The only way this makes sense is with the following reasoning:

Believing my irrational beliefs makes me happy and harms no one, so even if they could be wrong I will keep believing them.

This makes sense, until you realize that if you are going to believe anything for the sake of believing it that doesn't have to be actually true, you could believe things that make you much happier.

You just need to keep in mind that most people here are incapable of believing things that they really don't believe in just to make themselves happy.

OK-----Your turn

The 6 million dollar question is:

Why do you only believe the unproven things that make you happy here? Why not also believe, for example, that you will win the lottery? Wouldn't that be exciting and make you happy? Sure, it's probably not true but you can believe anything you want if it makes you happy!

So...

Why is faith an acceptable way to live life? For the rest of us, it is just an absolutely ridiculous concept.

-B

Bumble Bee Tuna · 05-30-2003, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Rational BAC
Explain anything at all that you felt within yourself that you could not really explain in any sort of "rational way" Try to analyse it. Try to do it scientifically. Examine it under a microscope. You will find nothing at all to explain your "feeling". Because none of those feelings can be analysed in any kind of scientific way.

Actually, they can.

Ever hear of the fields of psychology or neuroscience?

Goober · 05-30-2003, 04:19 AM

Bah.. Faith based reasoning - that's low. Onward to all those who ridicule anyone who thinks faith makes things true.

How about the muslims whos faith based reasoning told them to crash planes in to buildings? Were they correct because they had faith?

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05-29-2003, 10:09 PM	#33
Rational BAC Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Tampa Bay area Posts: 3,471	Pope--- To try and answer that one, honestly---------I haven't a clue. Not part of my core beliefs. Which simply means that you are talking about the rational part of my beliefs. That part is still unsettled. A quicky on my rational part that I hold for today----------I have no clue as to who will make it to heaven or not. My personal preference would be that all good people should get into heaven---and that includes atheists, and Buddhists, and Shintoists and Jews and Muslims and non- born aginners and any damn body else who has led a moral life. St Paul ---and any other part added on to the very simple 4 Gospels of the New Testament--------sort of stuck together--- long after the fact--- by committee by the Council of Nicea-- be damned. I tend to cherry pick out all the usual fundamentalist exclusionary parts of the Bible as far as going to heaven is concerned. Most of the exclusion comes from St Paul I think---and most of the time I think St Paul was a serious nut case. The only thing of value that Paul did was to extend a cult of Judaism to the Gentiles and on and on until there are now 2 billion adherants. Was that truly a good thing for the very simple and very practical ideas of Jesus Christ? Don't know for sure, but seriously doubt it. As far as hell is concerned---------again not part of my core beliefs. I don't think that there is a hell, ---a firey sulphuric hell-----sounds awfully medieval to me. Maybe a purgatory kind of thing though. Give a little time to reflect on the absolutely shitty life some people led for those people to realize that. -------But then--this is all conjecture and not part of my core beliefs. Got me on the hell thing. I really don't know.

05-29-2003, 11:15 PM	#34
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Pyrrho How do you explain your belief in the rationality of people, other than that it is "faith based"? Sigh. Because I was working under the misapprehension that "nobody could possibly be that stupid." I mean, how can a brain that produced so little electricity actually allow the person to type? I still might be able to make a case that somebody suffering from the medieval fantasy/delusion that emotions are something magical is mentally ill and not necessarily an idiot. But I won't push it, "Rational" let me down big time "My core belief system is irrational ---that I will admit openly. But so should you also openly admit that some of the biggest and MOST IMPORTANT parts of your lives are also irrational, unexplainable in any way at all" Oh brother, so dumb on so, so, many levels. So I would like to say formally and in front of the entire board, with all humility, that Pyrrho is abundantly correct. And I--as it has been demonstrated so clearly--am wrong. "Faith based" means just what it seems to mean. It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck and it waddles like an idiot duck. I freely admit, Pyrrho knows a duck when he sees one.

05-29-2003, 11:17 PM	#35
PopeInTheWoods Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Rochester NY USA Posts: 4,318	Thanks for the straightforward response, .07. You sound like a xian to me (though there are many Baptists out there who would probably disagree ). Andy

05-30-2003, 04:19 AM	#40
Goober Veteran Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: Adelaide, Australia Posts: 1,202	Bah.. Faith based reasoning - that's low. Onward to all those who ridicule anyone who thinks faith makes things true. How about the muslims whos faith based reasoning told them to crash planes in to buildings? Were they correct because they had faith?

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