Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Amlodhi · 08-01-2003, 07:31 PM

Hello All,

Being a new user on this board, I was reluctant to start a new thread this early. However, in reading some of the comments in another thread (Why do people 'believe'), I was reminded of a question that has perplexed me for some time. Because the comments that rekindled my curiousity were justifiably objected to by TruthIsTold as being off the topic of the OP, a new thread seemed to be warranted.

The standard theological rescension asserts that God:

1) Was pre-existant

2) Is omnipotent and omniscient

3) Created man to have "free will" because He didn't want to
"hard-wire" man's allegiance.

In addition to the above, this standard theological rescension asserts that anyone who withholds their allegiance will, whether it be by God created punishment or simply the default setting, suffer conscious eternal torment.

What was the purpose?

There is a brief reference that God placed man in the garden to "till" the ground and later, to subdue the earth. Also, eschatological doctrine speaks of man living and, in some cases, being subordinate rulers on a new earth. I have been unable, however, to reference any greater agenda.

Did God actually need someone to till the garden?

Was God lonely? I have had Christians tell me that God created man because he wanted someone who would love Him of their own free will. However, according to the biblical story of Lucifer, the angels had plenty of free will.

Does God simply need or want a number of successful candidates to populate and co-govern a new earth with Him?

In accordance with the above information (and assuming for the sake of argument that these religious premises have any basis in fact), what overwhelmingly important agenda could God have had to compel Him to create man at such a terrible price?

Consider the following:

1) Before anything else was, God alone existed.

2) During the course of various other activities, God says to Himself (or, if you will, the heavenly counsel or as the Trinity), "I'm going to make mankind."

3) Being omniscient (knowing the end at the beginning), God contemplates, "Now, if I do this, the majority of these beings are going to end up suffering eternal conscious torture. (Note: "free will" is irrelevant here. Regardless of the mechanism, God already knows this will be the final result.)

What does God say next then?:

Oh well, it's worth it?

Oh well, no hair off my chin?

What possible benefit could God derive from this act that would justify the outcome?

Would anyone here create a situation that would cause ten people to love them if they knew that 20 other people would experience eternal agony as a result?

If this was the only option, wouldn't it have been better to not have created mankind at all?

Is this the best that God could do?

I look forward to your comments.

Amlodhi

Abel Stable · 08-01-2003, 09:03 PM

This may seem simplified...but maybe because its a story. People need a story, or else why bother to listen? It's like if The Godfather were boiled down to just one sentence: A man and woman have three sons.

Anyway, its hard to sell something without a story.

Man 1: "Have you heard about God? The Creator of Everything?"
Man 2: "Wow, no, tell me about it!"
Man 1: "Well, God created everything, and made all of us, and put us here to live."
Man 2: "Really? Then what happened?"
Man 1: "That's it. That's all there is to it."
Man 2: (confused look) "But why___(fill in the blank) __...?"

So religion needs to answer those why's. Why is life so hard? Because of sin....and here's the story (insert scripture). The Judeo-Christian religion did a pretty good job of answering questions satisfactorily...at least for some ancient people and others living before certain scientific discoveries.

Just my two cents.

mark9950 · 08-01-2003, 09:16 PM

God is an ancient myth derived from gods that never existed for the sake of their belief and desire to worship system. This is the only explanation that would be logical.

Amlodhi · 08-01-2003, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Abel Stable: "This may seem simplified . . . but maybe because it's just a story."

Quote:

mark9950: "God is an ancient myth derived from gods that never existed for the sake of their belief and desire to worship system. This is the only explanation that would be logical."

Thank you for your comments Abel Stable and mark9950. I very much tend to agree with you both.

I would still, however, like to hear how those who adhere to conventional Christian doctrine (Magus perhaps) manage to rationalize this situation.

Namaste'

Amlodhi

xorbie · 08-02-2003, 01:00 AM

If you want a very funny acount of all of this, try reading Douglas Adams's The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Trilogy (it's 5 books). Really funny, stuff, but also pretty deep.

In response to your question, there would be no reason whatsoever that I can fathom for a perfect being to require people, a planet or a universe.

braces_for_impact · 08-02-2003, 02:06 AM

I have a feeling a standard theistic apology will surface here. That being, it's part of god's divine plan and as humans with finite understanding, we cannot hope to fathom it all.

emotional · 08-02-2003, 08:33 AM

My take on it is that He just likes to see stars shine, planets spin and creatures evolve. He may have done it all for fun.

Amlodhi · 08-02-2003, 08:39 AM

Quote:

xorbie: "If you want a very funny account of all this, try reading Douglas Adam's, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (it's 5 books)."

Actually, "The fifth volume in the increasingly inaccurately named, 'Hitchhiker's Trilogy'."

<chuckle> I've been a Douglas Adams fan since the early eighties.

Quote:

The argument goes something like this: 'I refuse to prove that I exist,' says God, 'for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing.'

'But,' says Man, 'the Babel fish is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED.'

'Oh dear,' says God, 'I hadn't thought of that,' and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.'

'Most leading theologians claim that this argument is a load of dingo's kidneys, but that didn't stop Oolon Colluphid making a small fortune when he used it as the central theme of his best-selling book, "Well That About Wraps It Up for God'"

Douglas Adams

Also, considered in a different light, it almost seems as if Mr. Adams has made an unwitting parody of the majority of Christian rationalizations, i.e.:

Quote:

"No matter what the customer wanted, the Machine always brewed up a brown liquid that tasted almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea."

The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Should be required reading.

Namaste'

Amlodhi

Amlodhi · 08-02-2003, 08:54 AM

Quote:

emotional: "He may have done it all for fun."

Surely, you jest.

emotional · 08-02-2003, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amlodhi
Surely, you jest.

OK, then He made it all for bipedal hominids to burn goat flesh for a sweet savour unto Him.

That makes more sense than my guess?

08-01-2003, 07:31 PM	#1
Amlodhi Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: central USA Posts: 434	What was the purpose? Hello All, Being a new user on this board, I was reluctant to start a new thread this early. However, in reading some of the comments in another thread (Why do people 'believe'), I was reminded of a question that has perplexed me for some time. Because the comments that rekindled my curiousity were justifiably objected to by TruthIsTold as being off the topic of the OP, a new thread seemed to be warranted. The standard theological rescension asserts that God: 1) Was pre-existant 2) Is omnipotent and omniscient 3) Created man to have "free will" because He didn't want to "hard-wire" man's allegiance. In addition to the above, this standard theological rescension asserts that anyone who withholds their allegiance will, whether it be by God created punishment or simply the default setting, suffer conscious eternal torment. What was the purpose? There is a brief reference that God placed man in the garden to "till" the ground and later, to subdue the earth. Also, eschatological doctrine speaks of man living and, in some cases, being subordinate rulers on a new earth. I have been unable, however, to reference any greater agenda. Did God actually need someone to till the garden? Was God lonely? I have had Christians tell me that God created man because he wanted someone who would love Him of their own free will. However, according to the biblical story of Lucifer, the angels had plenty of free will. Does God simply need or want a number of successful candidates to populate and co-govern a new earth with Him? In accordance with the above information (and assuming for the sake of argument that these religious premises have any basis in fact), what overwhelmingly important agenda could God have had to compel Him to create man at such a terrible price? Consider the following: 1) Before anything else was, God alone existed. 2) During the course of various other activities, God says to Himself (or, if you will, the heavenly counsel or as the Trinity), "I'm going to make mankind." 3) Being omniscient (knowing the end at the beginning), God contemplates, "Now, if I do this, the majority of these beings are going to end up suffering eternal conscious torture. (Note: "free will" is irrelevant here. Regardless of the mechanism, God already knows this will be the final result.) What does God say next then?: Oh well, it's worth it? Oh well, no hair off my chin? What possible benefit could God derive from this act that would justify the outcome? Would anyone here create a situation that would cause ten people to love them if they knew that 20 other people would experience eternal agony as a result? If this was the only option, wouldn't it have been better to not have created mankind at all? Is this the best that God could do? I look forward to your comments. Amlodhi

08-01-2003, 09:16 PM	#3
mark9950 Banned Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: midwest usa Posts: 1,203	The answer is God is an ancient myth derived from gods that never existed for the sake of their belief and desire to worship system. This is the only explanation that would be logical.

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08-01-2003, 09:03 PM	#2
Abel Stable Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Baltimore, MD Posts: 356	This may seem simplified...but maybe because its a story. People need a story, or else why bother to listen? It's like if The Godfather were boiled down to just one sentence: A man and woman have three sons. Anyway, its hard to sell something without a story. Man 1: "Have you heard about God? The Creator of Everything?" Man 2: "Wow, no, tell me about it!" Man 1: "Well, God created everything, and made all of us, and put us here to live." Man 2: "Really? Then what happened?" Man 1: "That's it. That's all there is to it." Man 2: (confused look) "But why___(fill in the blank) __...?" So religion needs to answer those why's. Why is life so hard? Because of sin....and here's the story (insert scripture). The Judeo-Christian religion did a pretty good job of answering questions satisfactorily...at least for some ancient people and others living before certain scientific discoveries. Just my two cents.

08-02-2003, 01:00 AM	#5
xorbie Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Champaign, IL or Boston, MA Posts: 6,360	If you want a very funny acount of all of this, try reading Douglas Adams's The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy Trilogy (it's 5 books). Really funny, stuff, but also pretty deep. In response to your question, there would be no reason whatsoever that I can fathom for a perfect being to require people, a planet or a universe.

08-02-2003, 02:06 AM	#6
braces_for_impact Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In a nondescript, black helicopter. Posts: 6,637	I have a feeling a standard theistic apology will surface here. That being, it's part of god's divine plan and as humans with finite understanding, we cannot hope to fathom it all.

08-02-2003, 08:33 AM	#7
emotional Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Boxing ring of HaShem, Jesus and Allah Posts: 1,945	My take on it is that He just likes to see stars shine, planets spin and creatures evolve. He may have done it all for fun.

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