Hobbs

Interesting, but unorthodox, view. This sounds somewhat similar to what I said about hell being the rebels' own fault. If you either ignore that God made these people the way they are, or add on a claim that God made all of us such that we truly can will ourselved to be different (or in some other way make ourselves, or choose to let God make us into, different people) such that we would enjoy paradise on God's terms, then I suppose you can get God off the hook.

Now, for some evidence that any of this actually is the case ...

Hobbs

Yes, I've made an analogy with rebelling against a strong and evil tyrant. Do you bow to an evil tyrant and do his evil bidding and get rewarded, or rebel against him even if you know the rebellion will not succeed and you will be severely punished?

Then, suppose you rebel: since the winner writes the history books, you would be written off as the evil one, and later generations would learn to despise your name. Now, let's suppose Yahweh is an evil tyrant, and Satan refused to bow to him, preferring to suffer for standing up for goodness than to be rewarded for abetting evil. How do you suppose Yahweh would write about Satan in his book?

[ September 16, 2002: Message edited by: Hobbs ]</p>

Ab_Normal

Robert Heinlein did in a way in <a href="http://www.powells.com/cgi-bin/biblio?inkey=7-0345316495-0" target="_blank">Job: A Comedy of Justice</a>

Marcion

Hobbs,

I think I would have to question this argument on a couple of fronts.

1) I don't know why, logically, god could not stand being in the presence of someone who is not perfect (or "evil", in other words). I know the bible asserts that this is the case, but I find it a very specious assertion.

2) Even if we assume that god cannot be around sinners, this does not explain the brutal nature of hell. If god is all powerful, he does not need to make hell a torture chamber, he could create a lesser place for the sinner (as an aside, I used to be mormon, and this is more or less what mormons believe).

Marcion

Actually, yes I can do so quite easily.

Is your comment meant to imply that in order for those in heaven to appreciate what they have, it is necessary for billions of people to suffer endless torment?

Is this a "you have to taste (or see) the bitter to know the sweet" comment?

GunnerJ

Irrelevent to whether a world where everyone is happy can be conceived of.

That should move the goalpost back into place, eh?

wade-w

Great book! I think its the best of his later works. And I'd MUCH rather go to his hell!

ManM

Marcion,
No, my comment was meant to get you thinking about what would happen if we all found ourselves in paradise.

I'm impressed. I've yet to see a utopian vision where everyone is happy. Or rather, I've yet to hear of one where happiness exists without being superficial or the result of brainwashing and drugs.

K

ManM:

You seem to be saying that God can't have people happy in Heaven unless He makes them superficially happy or He tortures other people in Hell. Is that true? Why do some need to be in torment in order for others to be truly happy? I would say that if those in Heaven were blissful while some of their loved ones were suffering unspeakable agony in Hell, they would bear a strong resemblance to the superficially happy drug user you mentioned.

atheist_in_foxhole

Many Xtians have said that hell isn't a torture chamber, it's just a "separation" from god. I'd like to know how we can be separated from an omnipresent god.