Freethought & Rationalism Archive

cydonia · 07-15-2002, 05:43 PM

Greetings, someone from another site suggested this link <a href="http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_MMM.html" target="_blank">tektonics.org</a>

And i see it has an unbearably long essay on why christianity didn't come from mithras. From what i've read christianity came from many pagan god man stories, much of my reading coming from the book The Jesus Mysteries.

Anyway before i get too involved with it, i'm just curious if anyone is familiar with this site and what do they feel about it? I'm still relatively new to this whole history of the bible thing, and i'm embarrassed to say that since this subject is so huge and everyone claims to have historical proof, i'm not sure if i trust my own judgment at times.

(end ramble)

Thanks!

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: cydonia ]

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: cydonia ]

GarColga · 07-15-2002, 06:17 PM

I noticed that the author of the essay lamented the fact that there was no past history of "Mithraic Fathers" who produced voluminous works and meditations upon Mithra.

It's very possible that there were such works, and that the early Christians burned them!

cloudyphiz · 07-15-2002, 06:45 PM

cydonia-

the jesus mysteries succeeds in some ways (particularly in quoting celsus) but overall doesn't garner much respect in scholarly circles. instead i'd suggest you pick up a copy of earl doherty's 'the jesus puzzle'.

<a href="http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm" target="_blank">here's a link to his site</a>

i haven't bought the book yet, so far i've only read the excerpts available on the web, but i think the general consensus is that doherty makes a much better case than gandy & freke do.

as for the tektonics site... it's kind of in the same boat as the christian septic tank. er, did i say septic tank? i meant <a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/" target="_blank">think tank</a>. let me put it this way: these guys think mcdowell & strobel are top-notch apologists. for instance... <a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/virginity.html" target="_blank">if you find this convincing</a> then i'm sorry but you have mush for brains.

-gary

foursquareman · 07-15-2002, 06:45 PM

but weren't the early christians persecuted by the romans (who i believe practised mithraism, excuse the spelling). And if so, it would be very hard for those such christians to destroy evidence of the like.

this is just my two cents.

cydonia · 07-15-2002, 07:08 PM

Thankyou for those links, cloudyphiz. I think i'll get a copy of the jesus puzzle. I'm not too terribly familiar with specific apologists (except my family, of course

) but that one on the old testament laws is quite disturbing. It's hard to rationalize that sort of barbarism.

GarColga · 07-15-2002, 07:12 PM

When the Edict of Milan freed the Christians from the pressure of persecution, they went on a rampage of destruction, burning books and temples, persecuting fellow Christian 'heretics' like the Romans never dreamed. The murder of Hypatia, "The last pagan scientist" by Christians bent on destroying manuscripts in the great Library at Alexandria is one of the saddest moments in Christian history.

Sojourner553 · 07-15-2002, 07:21 PM

You might be interested in some of the facts gathered here on Mithraism:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GREEK3.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GREEK3.TXT</a>

See:

Destruction of Pagan Temple Sites and Jewish Synagogues (scroll towards the bottom at:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/SUCCESS.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/SUCCESS.TXT</a>

to find information such as:

"It was after 394 C.E., that the State of Rome was now unequivocally Christian. The Catholic faith was proclaimed by law, and heresy was viewed as seriously as treason. There were still some pagans that clung onto their ancient religions. During this time although pagan sacrifices and prayers were prohibited, there were no outright governmental laws that
prohibited paganism. The major discrimination experienced by pagans were instead SOCIAL in nature--whereby Christian mobs stepped up attacks against their pagan temples and (educated pagans claimed) harassed them in their daily
living. (Note: Paganism was not directly outlawed until over a century later in
the 530's by the Emperor Justinian.)

Christian Churches were built on many of the old destroyed temple sites--as any traveler to Italy or Greece can see today. Statues and paintings of the Greek and Roman gods were sought out and destroyed. Indeed, the reason why there are so few statues left of the ancient world, is because early Christians felt it their moral duty to smash them. The sculptures in museums, are for the most part, cheap and inferior COPIES made for travelers and private collectors during Roman times. Unlike the original works, these
copies were overlooked in the zealous campaign of destruction that took place in the temples and cities. (EH Gombrich, THE STORY OF ART, Phaidon
Publishers, Inc, 1966, p 56)

Christian leaders tried to accommodate some of the ancient pagan beliefs within its doctrine, to facilitate the transition from paganism to Christianity. Greek gods and goddesses were replaced by Christian saints or even the Virgin
Mary herself. For example, around the time of the destruction of the Serapeum in 391 C.E., the veneration of the Virgin Mary as the Theotokos, (Mother of God) was introduced. In this way, the worshipers of the mother-goddess, Isis were
essentially able to continue worship ninterrupted--merely by changing their
goddess' name. The figure of Isis nursing her child Horus became identified with the Virgin Mary suckling the baby Jesus. The Third Council at Ephesus, voted to replace its ancient protectorate of the virgin huntress Diana with
the Virgin Mary. In Egypt, the ankh--the ancient symbol of life--was transformed into the Christian cross.

In 376 C.E., Mithra's cave temple on Vatican Hill in Rome had been already seized by Christians. Catholic bishops not only took up residence in the general area--but also assumed the old name for the Mithraic high priest--
"Pater Patrum" (ie "father of fathers"), which evolved into Papa or pope. (David Adams Leeming, THE WORLD OF MYTH, Oxford University Press,1990, p 199.) Likewise, the twin founders of the city of Rome--Romulus and Remus were now replaced by the biblical apostles-- Peter and Paul.

The festival of Sol Invictus (December 25th) became celebrated as Christmas--complete with decorating tree branches with ornaments, singing, and exchanging gifts in the name of the reborn god. Earlier, just as the pagan god Apollo
had merged with the Roman god, Sol Invictus-- now there emerged the new god, Jesus-- the Christ "of the sun". Sometimes all three of these gods were depicted in their chariots of fire--tall blonde youths with strong Roman
features and radiating halos. (John Romer, TESTAMENT, p 231")

taken from: <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a>

{PS: I recommend this chapter for an analysis of the birth stories on Jesus:

<a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/BIRTH.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/BIRTH.TXT</a>

Sojourner

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

[ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]

cydonia · 07-15-2002, 07:37 PM

That looks like some great information, Sojourner (however the last link doesn't work).

Just curious, since this really is such a large subject, how long did it take for you guys to feel you had a good understanding of this historical information? Thousands of years of history seems so overwhelming, it's a little discouraging but at the same time i feel compelled to keep learning.

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: cydonia ]

Kosh · 07-15-2002, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sojourner553:
You might be interested in some of the facts gathered here on Mithraism:

Destruction of Pagan Temple Sites and Jewish Synagogues (scroll towards the bottom at:

Golly Gee Whiz.

I wonder why the FourSquare church I attended never talked about this stuff?

Egoinos · 07-15-2002, 08:20 PM

I did a course this year on Mithras

I showed The Jesus Mysteries to my lecturer and asked whether I should read it (in case it was faulty, I didn't want bits of information cropping up in my exams) and he was not impressed by it. In fact he told me not to read it. So I didn't.

General stuff about Mithraism can be gleaned from Franz Cumont's "Mysteries of Mithra" or something along those lines, but apparently his ideas about Mithras are being completely superceded by David Ulansey's theories about him. There is a bunch of links <a href="http://www.geocities.com/hierosmysterion/links.html" target="_blank">here</a> (though not much content on that site) about Mithraism to some good stuff on the web, including David Ulansey's website.

As I understand it, we know very little about Mithraism, firstly because it was, after all, a mystery religion, and therefore kept its stuff secret, but also because of Christian destruction. What we have left is the stories from Zoroastrianism (which may or may not have much to do with Roman Mithraism), a "Mithras Liturgy" (available on the web) from Egypt (which again, may have nothing to do with Roman Mithraism) and the sculptures and cave reliefs. David Ulansey has theorised that the symbolism of the crab, dog & bull has to do with agricultural planting cycles and the equinox or something (strange how soon your memory departs after exams) and has links with the star signs.

--Egoinos--

[Edited to add: Incidentally, in case we have anyone here who knows a lot about Mithraism, has anyone ever noticed that the statues of Mithras slaying the bull bear a remarkable resemblance to that of Victory slaying a bull?]

[ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Egoinos ]

07-15-2002, 05:43 PM	#1
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Mithras and christian apologetics Greetings, someone from another site suggested this link <a href="http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_04_02_04_MMM.html" target="_blank">tektonics.org</a> And i see it has an unbearably long essay on why christianity didn't come from mithras. From what i've read christianity came from many pagan god man stories, much of my reading coming from the book The Jesus Mysteries. Anyway before i get too involved with it, i'm just curious if anyone is familiar with this site and what do they feel about it? I'm still relatively new to this whole history of the bible thing, and i'm embarrassed to say that since this subject is so huge and everyone claims to have historical proof, i'm not sure if i trust my own judgment at times. (end ramble) Thanks! [ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: cydonia ] [ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: cydonia ]</p>

07-15-2002, 07:21 PM	#7
Sojourner553 Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southern US Posts: 817	You might be interested in some of the facts gathered here on Mithraism: <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GREEK3.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/GREEK3.TXT</a> See: Destruction of Pagan Temple Sites and Jewish Synagogues (scroll towards the bottom at: <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/SUCCESS.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/SUCCESS.TXT</a> to find information such as: "It was after 394 C.E., that the State of Rome was now unequivocally Christian. The Catholic faith was proclaimed by law, and heresy was viewed as seriously as treason. There were still some pagans that clung onto their ancient religions. During this time although pagan sacrifices and prayers were prohibited, there were no outright governmental laws that prohibited paganism. The major discrimination experienced by pagans were instead SOCIAL in nature--whereby Christian mobs stepped up attacks against their pagan temples and (educated pagans claimed) harassed them in their daily living. (Note: Paganism was not directly outlawed until over a century later in the 530's by the Emperor Justinian.) Christian Churches were built on many of the old destroyed temple sites--as any traveler to Italy or Greece can see today. Statues and paintings of the Greek and Roman gods were sought out and destroyed. Indeed, the reason why there are so few statues left of the ancient world, is because early Christians felt it their moral duty to smash them. The sculptures in museums, are for the most part, cheap and inferior COPIES made for travelers and private collectors during Roman times. Unlike the original works, these copies were overlooked in the zealous campaign of destruction that took place in the temples and cities. (EH Gombrich, THE STORY OF ART, Phaidon Publishers, Inc, 1966, p 56) Christian leaders tried to accommodate some of the ancient pagan beliefs within its doctrine, to facilitate the transition from paganism to Christianity. Greek gods and goddesses were replaced by Christian saints or even the Virgin Mary herself. For example, around the time of the destruction of the Serapeum in 391 C.E., the veneration of the Virgin Mary as the Theotokos, (Mother of God) was introduced. In this way, the worshipers of the mother-goddess, Isis were essentially able to continue worship ninterrupted--merely by changing their goddess' name. The figure of Isis nursing her child Horus became identified with the Virgin Mary suckling the baby Jesus. The Third Council at Ephesus, voted to replace its ancient protectorate of the virgin huntress Diana with the Virgin Mary. In Egypt, the ankh--the ancient symbol of life--was transformed into the Christian cross. In 376 C.E., Mithra's cave temple on Vatican Hill in Rome had been already seized by Christians. Catholic bishops not only took up residence in the general area--but also assumed the old name for the Mithraic high priest-- "Pater Patrum" (ie "father of fathers"), which evolved into Papa or pope. (David Adams Leeming, THE WORLD OF MYTH, Oxford University Press,1990, p 199.) Likewise, the twin founders of the city of Rome--Romulus and Remus were now replaced by the biblical apostles-- Peter and Paul. The festival of Sol Invictus (December 25th) became celebrated as Christmas--complete with decorating tree branches with ornaments, singing, and exchanging gifts in the name of the reborn god. Earlier, just as the pagan god Apollo had merged with the Roman god, Sol Invictus-- now there emerged the new god, Jesus-- the Christ "of the sun". Sometimes all three of these gods were depicted in their chariots of fire--tall blonde youths with strong Roman features and radiating halos. (John Romer, TESTAMENT, p 231") taken from: <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/index.html</a> {PS: I recommend this chapter for an analysis of the birth stories on Jesus: <a href="http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/BIRTH.TXT" target="_blank">http://mac-2001.com/philo/crit/BIRTH.TXT</a> Sojourner [ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ] [ July 16, 2002: Message edited by: Sojourner553 ]</p>

07-15-2002, 07:37 PM	#8
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	That looks like some great information, Sojourner (however the last link doesn't work). Just curious, since this really is such a large subject, how long did it take for you guys to feel you had a good understanding of this historical information? Thousands of years of history seems so overwhelming, it's a little discouraging but at the same time i feel compelled to keep learning. [ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: cydonia ]</p>

07-15-2002, 08:20 PM	#10
Egoinos Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 423	I did a course this year on Mithras I showed The Jesus Mysteries to my lecturer and asked whether I should read it (in case it was faulty, I didn't want bits of information cropping up in my exams) and he was not impressed by it. In fact he told me not to read it. So I didn't. General stuff about Mithraism can be gleaned from Franz Cumont's "Mysteries of Mithra" or something along those lines, but apparently his ideas about Mithras are being completely superceded by David Ulansey's theories about him. There is a bunch of links <a href="http://www.geocities.com/hierosmysterion/links.html" target="_blank">here</a> (though not much content on that site) about Mithraism to some good stuff on the web, including David Ulansey's website. As I understand it, we know very little about Mithraism, firstly because it was, after all, a mystery religion, and therefore kept its stuff secret, but also because of Christian destruction. What we have left is the stories from Zoroastrianism (which may or may not have much to do with Roman Mithraism), a "Mithras Liturgy" (available on the web) from Egypt (which again, may have nothing to do with Roman Mithraism) and the sculptures and cave reliefs. David Ulansey has theorised that the symbolism of the crab, dog & bull has to do with agricultural planting cycles and the equinox or something (strange how soon your memory departs after exams) and has links with the star signs. --Egoinos-- [Edited to add: Incidentally, in case we have anyone here who knows a lot about Mithraism, has anyone ever noticed that the statues of Mithras slaying the bull bear a remarkable resemblance to that of Victory slaying a bull?] [ July 15, 2002: Message edited by: Egoinos ]</p>

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07-15-2002, 06:17 PM	#2
GarColga Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boise, Idaho, USA Posts: 57	I noticed that the author of the essay lamented the fact that there was no past history of "Mithraic Fathers" who produced voluminous works and meditations upon Mithra. It's very possible that there were such works, and that the early Christians burned them!

07-15-2002, 06:45 PM	#3
cloudyphiz Senior Member Join Date: May 2001 Location: rochester, ny, usa Posts: 658	cydonia- the jesus mysteries succeeds in some ways (particularly in quoting celsus) but overall doesn't garner much respect in scholarly circles. instead i'd suggest you pick up a copy of earl doherty's 'the jesus puzzle'. <a href="http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/home.htm" target="_blank">here's a link to his site</a> i haven't bought the book yet, so far i've only read the excerpts available on the web, but i think the general consensus is that doherty makes a much better case than gandy & freke do. as for the tektonics site... it's kind of in the same boat as the christian septic tank. er, did i say septic tank? i meant <a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/" target="_blank">think tank</a>. let me put it this way: these guys think mcdowell & strobel are top-notch apologists. for instance... <a href="http://www.christian-thinktank.com/virginity.html" target="_blank">if you find this convincing</a> then i'm sorry but you have mush for brains. -gary

07-15-2002, 06:45 PM	#4
foursquareman Junior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: Australia Posts: 63	but weren't the early christians persecuted by the romans (who i believe practised mithraism, excuse the spelling). And if so, it would be very hard for those such christians to destroy evidence of the like. this is just my two cents.

07-15-2002, 07:08 PM	#5
cydonia Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: southern california Posts: 1,002	Thankyou for those links, cloudyphiz. I think i'll get a copy of the jesus puzzle. I'm not too terribly familiar with specific apologists (except my family, of course ) but that one on the old testament laws is quite disturbing. It's hard to rationalize that sort of barbarism.

07-15-2002, 07:12 PM	#6
GarColga Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Boise, Idaho, USA Posts: 57	When the Edict of Milan freed the Christians from the pressure of persecution, they went on a rampage of destruction, burning books and temples, persecuting fellow Christian 'heretics' like the Romans never dreamed. The murder of Hypatia, "The last pagan scientist" by Christians bent on destroying manuscripts in the great Library at Alexandria is one of the saddest moments in Christian history.

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