Freethought & Rationalism Archive

SignOfTheCross · 08-18-2003, 05:37 PM

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Originally posted by Thomas Metcalf
Originally posted by SignOfTheCross :

Wait a minute. Is your objection to my argument that it sounds like another argument that people don't accept? I think you'll have to engage my argument directly, rather than simply reminiscing about arguments past.

As for the paradox of the stone, it actually does present a problem for accepted definitions of omnipotence. What's your definition of omnipotence?

All powerful with no contradicting premises. It is contradictory for an omniscient and omnipotent God to kill Himself, and the definition of omnipotence is not contradictory.

As far as I know, the "can God create a rock He can't lift" arguement has been refuted, admittedly by atheists, and the arguement serves only as a learning curve for young atheist.

Peace,
SOTC

Thomas Metcalf · 08-18-2003, 05:45 PM

Originally posted by Odemus :

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Are we making them less powerful? Would they have been more powerful if they succeeded?

No. But they would be more powerful if they had the opportunity to succeed at all.

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I'm looking for a logical explanation which will lead me to conclude that a being is more powerful by having the ability to suicide.

The best way I have to think about power is just as a number of abilities. If I have more abilities than you, I'm more powerful than you.

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I'd also like a working definition for "complete".

It doesn't do anything in vacuo. But complete power is every power is the power to do anything it is possible to do or bring about any state of affairs it is possible to bring about.

Thomas Metcalf · 08-18-2003, 05:47 PM

Originally posted by Ottman Out :

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I would question whether God's lack of desire to cease to exist really constituted a lack of omnipotence.

No one holds this position. Our position is that God's lack of ability to cease to exist indicates a lack of omnipotence.

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Maybe God has the power to cease to exist, but God's character is such that in no circumstance would God choose to cease to exist.

He actually doesn't have the power to cease to exist, because he exists necessarily. Even if he chose to cease to exist, he couldn't do it.

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Imagine two people, one happy and healthy, the second depressive and suicidal. Assume the happy and healthy person would never contemplate suicide. Does that make the happy and healthy person less powerful than the person who keeps attempting suicide and may one day succeed?

It's not a case of God never wanting to commit suicide. It's a case of God not being able to do so, even if he wanted to.

Spenser · 08-18-2003, 05:51 PM

I'm going to butt in here. Kill himself is a bad term, I believe the argument is better served if phrased more like:

Can God, being omnipotent, cease to exist?

Now I've read some of you claiming that God committing suicide is not logically possible much like creating a rock he cannot lift is a logical contradiction. Well, what is exactly is so illogical about ceasing to exist?

Ceasing to exist is perfectly logical. I'm sure plenty of theists can picture God turning something into nothing (nothing meaning absolutely nothing). Can God do it? If he's omnipotent you'd think so, if not you'd think he's not omnipotent. The problem, this is a scenario that we can never know, how exactly can anyone prove or provide evidence for such a thing when evidence cannot even be provided for the existence of God, or the existence of omnipotence, to begin with? Even if God existed, how can we know if he could cease to exist unless he told us, or unless he ceased to exist and there were some way of knowing (seeing, being made aware of) that???

I don't think this argument can go very far...

Thomas Metcalf · 08-18-2003, 05:53 PM

Originally posted by SignOfTheCross :

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All powerful with no contradicting premises. It is contradictory for an omniscient and omnipotent God to kill Himself, and the definition of omnipotence is not contradictory.

Then you'll have to define "all powerful." Otherwise, we haven't really learned much. All of what?

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As far as I know, the "can God create a rock He can't lift" arguement has been refuted, admittedly by atheists, and the arguement serves only as a learning curve for young atheist.

Perhaps the crude version, but my position (which will hopefully appear in the journals eventually) is that the Paradox of the Stone is still a problem for the most popular versions of omnipotence. But I'll need to know your definition first.

Ottman Out · 08-18-2003, 06:04 PM

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Originally posted by Thomas Metcalf The best way I have to think about power is just as a number of abilities. If I have more abilities than you, I'm more powerful than you.

So let's say that you and I have exactly the same abilities, except that I know calculus and you don't. So you have the ability to learn calculus, which I don't have, and I have the ability to do calculus, which you don't have. We have the same number of abilities, but who is more powerful? (Edited to add: Yes, this is an allusion to an argument against omnipotence that I read in one of your papers.)

Thomas Metcalf · 08-18-2003, 06:10 PM

Originally posted by Ottman Out :

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So let's say that you and I have exactly the same abilities, except that I know calculus and you don't. So you have the ability to learn calculus, which I don't have, and I have the ability to do calculus, which you don't have. We have the same number of abilities, but who is more powerful? (Edited to add: Yes, this is an allusion to an argument against omnipotence that I read in one of your papers.)

If we have the same quantity of abilities, but different abilities, then we have to ask which ability, learning calculus or doing calculus, is more power-granting. I would say the latter is. So you would be more powerful.

Ottman Out · 08-18-2003, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Thomas Metcalf
He actually doesn't have the power to cease to exist, because he exists necessarily. Even if he chose to cease to exist, he couldn't do it.

I will have to confess that I have never really understood the concept of a necessary being. Sounds very medieval-theological to me. Is the idea of God's necessarily existing really fundamental to Christianity, or is it an accretion by later philosophers that could be lopped off?

jfryejr · 08-18-2003, 08:44 PM

I think it would be interesting to consider whether an omnipotent being could limit its omnipotence. I think that might be a better discussion than god's ability to become non-existent.

Can god will himself to be less powerful? That's what would have to happen if he were to will himself non-existent, non-existence would equate to no power, no omnipresence, etc.

Magus wrote:

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This doesn't mean he isn't omnipotent, but omnipotence does have bounds. A paradox can't exist, even for God.

I think being all powerful would lend itself to not having bounds. As far as paradoxes, I think an omnipotent being with limitations is a paradox in itself. Also, calling god omnipotent and then placing the limitation of not being able to be paradoxical, makes god paradoxical and not omnipotent

:.

SOTC wrote:

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This sounds a lot like the "can God create a rock He can't lift" arguement, and we all know that one leads to nothing.

I think there's a difference between whether god can create something more powerful than himself and whether god can make himself less powerful. They're both paradoxical to the standard definition of god, but in opposite directions.

I also think the real issue of god ceasing to exist would present a bigger problem for the "eternal" nature of god. If he can't cease to exist, he's not all powerful. I think that an eternal being would, by definition, not be able to kill itself, as it would occupy all of everything (time,space,whatever there is/was before time/space). If god is eternal, can he be omnipotent--can he cease to be eternal...

Barcode · 08-19-2003, 07:41 AM

I asked my Catholic girlfriend this last night after reading, here's the response I got.

If God killed himself, then we wouldn't feel his presence within us and people would stop praying, believing, and following him.

I asked if she thought the world would carry on as it always as, with people arguing, fighting, inventing things, etc.

She said yes, there'd be little difference in how the world operates.

I asked her why bother with God then.

A lot of errrms, aaahhhhss, and she is going to take questions to her Priest.

08-18-2003, 05:51 PM	#24
Spenser Banned Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Don't you wish your boy friend got drunk like me, Posts: 7,808	Going Nowhere Fast I'm going to butt in here. Kill himself is a bad term, I believe the argument is better served if phrased more like: Can God, being omnipotent, cease to exist? Now I've read some of you claiming that God committing suicide is not logically possible much like creating a rock he cannot lift is a logical contradiction. Well, what is exactly is so illogical about ceasing to exist? Ceasing to exist is perfectly logical. I'm sure plenty of theists can picture God turning something into nothing (nothing meaning absolutely nothing). Can God do it? If he's omnipotent you'd think so, if not you'd think he's not omnipotent. The problem, this is a scenario that we can never know, how exactly can anyone prove or provide evidence for such a thing when evidence cannot even be provided for the existence of God, or the existence of omnipotence, to begin with? Even if God existed, how can we know if he could cease to exist unless he told us, or unless he ceased to exist and there were some way of knowing (seeing, being made aware of) that??? I don't think this argument can go very far...

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08-19-2003, 07:41 AM	#30
Barcode Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Portugal Posts: 633	I asked my Catholic girlfriend this last night after reading, here's the response I got. If God killed himself, then we wouldn't feel his presence within us and people would stop praying, believing, and following him. I asked if she thought the world would carry on as it always as, with people arguing, fighting, inventing things, etc. She said yes, there'd be little difference in how the world operates. I asked her why bother with God then. A lot of errrms, aaahhhhss, and she is going to take questions to her Priest.

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