bonduca

At least Khaled is using the plural form of the noun to refer to us in this thread. That is encouraging progress.

-DM-

Every one, true religion allegedly revealed by "God" will tell us something different about what is right and what is wrong. This sounds like chaos to me.

This from the Koran ESPECIALLY sounds like chaos to me:

2:191 Muslims are to kill disbelievers wherever they find them.

2:193 Muslims to fight all unbelievers until no religion other than Islam remains.

3:28, 9:23 Muslims are prohibited from befriending a nonbeliever even if the nonbeliever is the Muslim's father or the brother.

3:85 No other religion except Islam is to be accepted.

4:74 Let those who fight in the cause of God who barter the life of this world for that which is to come; for whoever fights on God’s path, whether he is killed or triumphs, will receive a handsome reward.

4:76 Those who believe fight in the cause of God.

5:11 Those who disbelieve in Quran will go to hell.

5:34 Muslims are to slay, crucify, or cut the hands and feet of disbelievers, expel them from the land with disgrace that they shall have great punishment in the world hereafter.

8:39-42 Say to the Infidels: if they desist from their unbelief, what is now past shall be forgiven; but if they return to it, they have already before them the doom of the ancients! Fight then against them till strife be at an end, and the religion be all of it God’s.

8:65 Muslims are to fight disbelievers.

9:5-6 Those who join with other gods are to be killed wherever they may be found.

9:28 Non-Muslims are najis (filthy, untouchable, impure).

9:29 If disbelievers are Christians and Jews, they are to be humiliated. A penalty tax is to be imposed on them.

9:123 Non-Muslims are to be treated harshly, murdered.

14:17 Nonbelievers will go to hell and will drink boiling water.

22:9 Garments of fire shall be cut for nonbelievers, boiling water shall be poured over their heads, whatever is in their bowls and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods.

25:52 Muslims are to strive against unbelievers with great endeavor.

47:4 Disbelievers shall be decapitated, then after making a wide slaughter among them, the remaining captives are to be carefully tied up.

66:9 Non-Muslims are to be treated sternly because they belong to hell.

--Don--

jojo-sa

So if I get it riht atheist have nothing to offer butto say that basically what they so far have discovered in their studies indicatesno clear proof of a God.

In other words they have a lack of knowledge and are basically confused.

As for systems of government and other law systems it is real easy to show flaws in it and errors in it. This is the reason it is always changing.

Even in USA in the 30's alchohol was outlawed, then later it was ok. Indicating they dont know what they doing and going by trial and error.

Using the common sense pattern and and logic of the heart and some here might say, which is different for everyone.

I would still like to know from the atheists out there, seeing that atheism is not a system as showed to me in my ignorance, what system do they follow for ther daily life?

I would like to gather info on individual system and look and study them and see how my "logic" judges it.

My logic could just as well be uncle bob's "bulltwax", but hey thats what I think You atheists on here are saying. "follow your own logic and make up your own ideas".........

scarmig

So you've already condemned us?

Conversation over.

Vorkosigan

I would still like to know from the atheists out there, seeing that atheism is not a system as showed to me in my ignorance, what system do they follow for ther daily life?

You'd have to ask each one specifically. Atheism is just the disbelief in gods. How atheists live their own lives is up to them.

Michael

jojo-sa

Hi Don

Seeing you always quoting ibn warraq.

read this <a href="http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/FAQ/warraq1a.html" target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/WestHollywood/Park/6443/FAQ/warraq1a.html</a>

sighhswolf

Very good statement. Humans are very self absorbed and arrogant.
The question is one that bears investigation.
We are so taken with our role as the highest form
of intelligence on this planet (and that can be argued), that we assume that we are entitled to recieve some form of reprise from the natural order, we are exempt from the chain of life: birth, procreation, death.
Humankind has always had conceptual problems with death, and many feel that our status as humans give us the right to escape our own demise, that there just HAS to be something more.
We are just to "nobel" as a species to think that death is the end of existence.
It amazes me at times to listen to Christians spouting off about the theory of evolution, and generally denouncing it in favor of Biblical
accounts.
But, these very same people have no trouble advancing the religious doctrine of the "soul" living on (after the body dies) in "heaven".
They never once tie the concept of evolution to their own religious beliefs.
If as christians say, there is a "soul", and death is followed by the migration of this entity to a heavenly reward, what would you call that transformation?
To leave this body and to be exempt from the
pain of earthly existence, and to gain immortality through this change, in effect becomes evolution. The evolution of the "lifeforce" to a higher plain of existence.
But I digress here.....
We can't escape our fear of death, and we cannot
understand or comprehend "Nothingness". As a life form we are not and never will be "humble" in the face of the endless bounds of the universe.
Wolf

Bree

I'm more than a little curious as to why you think that an indication or belief that there is no God equals, in your words, that "atheist [sic] have nothing to offer" - in other words, are you saying that unless one comes up with a concrete belief, everything else is a waste of time?

<strong> From what I gather, you believe that a study about the existance of God that is either inconclusive or conclusive (i.e. there IS no God) only demonstrates a lack of knowledge. Why, then, do you insist on calling it a study? Many a 'study' has been done by intellectuals that has proved a certain theory or a belief system without proof for existance - are these intellectuals, then, only confused?

<strong> Is a system necessary? Do you have a 'system' that you follow in your daily life? Personally, the first thing I do when I get up and the last thing I do before going to bed is use the loo. Is this the system you're talking about?


I would like to gather info on individual system and look and study them and see how my "logic" judges it.

<strong> What's wrong with that? My logic is different from your logic because we're two different people with two different backgrounds. We are not only genetically different from one another, but we're also sociologically different. We may be of opposite genders. We may come from different religious backgrouds. We have differeing experiences. My logic cannot be the same as anyone else's - therefore, I don't want someone else's logic imposed on me.

Make sense?

Orpheous99

Originally posted by jojo-sa:

I would still like to know from the atheists out there, seeing that atheism is not a system as showed to me in my ignorance, what system do they follow for ther daily life?

Atheists, and agnostics, get their "system" from the same place which theists, like you do. We're just more honest about it. We don't need to create the threat of punishment from some mythical sky father in order to live in harmony. We don't base our morality and laws on fear which the theists seem to need them to be.

Dominance-based religions, like Christianity, Islam, and Judaism are all about control and power. As these religions grow older they eventually lose this as the followers gradually see it for what it truly is. Islam is still much younger than Christianity and thus is still more in control. Islam is about where Christianity was around 400 years ago.

Eudaimonist

Confused? To be confused suggests that one's thoughts are unclear or mixed up, but that doesn't describe most atheists. One does not have to be all-knowing to lack confusion -- one simply has to have an orderly, rational mind.

</strong>

My personal system has its roots in ancient Greek thought, and is strongly influenced by the modern ethical ideas of Ayn Rand's Objectivism. I gave you a link to an Objectivist site in a previous post in this topic. I'll give you one more, which is my ethical community.

<a href="http://www.kindreason.com/" target="_blank">Fellowship of Reason</a>

If one follows logic and discovers truths of reality, that's good, right? There is nothing to prevent a logical, perceptive person from discovering truth. In fact, this is the only way truths have ever been discovered -- there are no magic shortcuts.