Rhea

while interesting, rests upon one monumental assumption.

One that, frankly, I find exceptionally puzzling.

It rests on the assumption that Christians WANT to stay alive on earth and want to AVOID getting to heaven for as long as possible.

???

Why would that be? As interesting as it is to discuss what God could have done (or should have done) to save this dying person or that murdered soul or the other entire village under the mud, as vociferously or convincingly as a Christian might argue for the clear actions at times of the god or the obvious higher purpose behind its lack of action, doesn't this energy all represent a glorifying framework for not wanting to get to heaven yet?


What. Is up. With that?

So every one of you who has ever argued that God has saved this group or that person - why would you want him to?

Why don't Christians all die younger than the rest of us, if Yahweh loves them so? Why aren't there "scientific" experiments showing this to be true - and proclaiming how wonderful (and miraculous) it is?


...


Anybody know?

Pyrrho

Indeed, all who believe that they will go to Paradise when they die do want to be dead. It is insane to prefer an imperfect place to a perfect one.

One may say that they believe that suicide is wrong (though the Bible doesn't say this in any clear way, and there are examples, such as Sampson, who killed himself, and this is presented as a good thing). But even if one were not permitted to kill oneself, one could still wish to be dead. Yet most pretended Christians want to live. How many of them pray to God to kill them now, or to kill their loved ones? Instead, they tend to pray for a longer life!

So, I think we can say that those who profess to believe that they will go to Heaven when they die, but don't want to be dead, either are remarkably stupid for not thinking about this, or are insincere when they claim to believe they will go to Heaven.

spurly

Paul said it best:

"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain".

Why do I want to keep living? So I can tell as many people as possible that they have hope. So I can love as many people as possible. So I can help people put their hand in the hand of God. There is no better reason for living.

Kevin

Rhea

However many you loved or told, that's as many as possible.


So you believe that being here on earth spreading the word is BETTER than being in heaven with your god? That's why you don't want to go? That's why you'll pray to god to not take you yet?

I'm not talking about your reason for living - I'm talking about your reason for trying to avoid death. For trying to delay as long as possible your meeting with you God.


(as you know many of us feel plenty of hope & love, thank you very much. many folks feel hope in their own religion, which you seek to destroy by yours.)

Pyrrho

So, you don't think God can manage the world well enough without you continuing to live? That you are needed to tell people that "they have hope"? That you cannot love in Heaven? That God needs you in order to "help people put their hand in the hand of God"?

With Paul saying "to die is gain" (Philippians 1:21), he is acknowledging that it is better to be dead than alive, as I asserted would be the case of any true Christian who believes in Heaven. This is further emphasized in the next verses:

If you prefer the Revised Standard Version (with verse 21):

Paul is clearly saying that it is better to be dead than alive, and the only reason he gives for any interest in continuing to live is as a means to an end. However, the means were distasteful to him, as he would prefer to be dead ("to die is gain" and "having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better" than remaining alive). The point is, Paul did not want to keep on living, but only did so out of his belief that he was fulfilling God's will in doing so. But he was quite ready to die, and wanted death, unlike so many pretended "Christians" today. There must be a sincere desire for death; otherwise the babbling of belief in going to Heaven when one dies is an empty claim. And one would not have to try to persuade oneself to want death; it is perfectly obvious that Paradise is better than life on earth, so the desire for death follows quite naturally and inevitably from a truly sincere belief that one will go there when one dies.

So, even if you are really like Paul, and are somehow important to God that you keep on living for a time, if you are truly like Paul, you would not want to remain alive, but would want to be dead. And the sooner God would 'bring you home', the better.

I don't want you to answer these questions here (please, please do not), as public declarations are not terribly meaningful for determining what is in one's heart, but do you really want to die? Do you pray that God will kill you as soon as possible, or that He will let you live longer? What about your family and friends? Do you wish that God would take them now, so that they can be with Him in Paradise, or do you tend to pray that God will keep them alive, depriving them of Paradise longer than needed? How could you say that you love anyone, if you would prefer that they continue to suffer on earth, rather than for them to be with God in Heaven? Not only must you want to die yourself, but you must truly wish it for everyone you care about, if you believe they will go to Heaven. And, this should come to you naturally, as it follows very obviously from the sincere belief that there is a Paradise, where those who, in God's Grace, are allowed to reside after death. If you do not truly wish to be dead, and wish it for all of those who you love and believe will go to Heaven when they die, then I think that is a clear proof that your "belief" is insincere, a mere uttering of words that mean nothing to you. Obviously, there is no point in trying to convince me of your sincerity, as I will not determine your fate.

Sci_Fidelity

Posted by Spurly:



Or maybe, just maybe, there's a shadow of a doubt in your mind-

Rhea

Thinking more on your response... so if you truly belive that this life is only to act as god's servant, then I wonder does tat mean that you willingly wait for paradise to try new movies or new hobbies or whatnot? It seems? That if you deeply believe what you said, then wasting even a moment on selfish pleasure - a trip to the ice-cream parlor, e.g., is a moment you could have been finding a new person to tell they have hope?

This is a sincere question. I ponder, if I really believed what you say you believe, why would I want to do anything for myself - I'd have all eternity to pleasure myself, whereas the only reason for my earthly life is to do god's work.

You know? I'm just trying to put myself in the shoes of someone who is truly convinced of a blissful afterlife. And when I do that, I can't imagine wasting any time on me, If I really believed it.

You know?