Freethought & Rationalism Archive

phlebas · 05-07-2002, 08:23 AM

I was having this discussion recently with my sister and her husband (who is vaguely Catholic). We were shaking our heads sadly at recent reports of child abuse by the priesthood. And of course we started discussing whether this was brought on by their vows of celibacy, and they eventually crack all over the first victim they can find.

My BIL's mom claims that priests weren't required to be celibate until sometime within the last 70 years or so. She says that celibacy was dictated by the Vatican because they didn't want the weathly priests that were high up in the organization to have someone other than the Church to leave their money to when they died.

That's a very cynical view of Catholic bureaucracy, especially coming as it did from an actual Catholic. I wish it were true

But I'm pretty sure it's not. However, it occurs to me that I have no idea when and why the celibacy thing started. Surely it didn't start with Peter? He couldn't get laid, so he figured no one else should, either?

Anyway, I've done some cursory web searches about this with no luck. I figured some bright person here would know something about this. Anyone have any idea when and why the vows of celibacy became S.O.P. for priests?

Wizardry · 05-07-2002, 09:05 AM

From <a href="http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/3_ch05.htm" target="_blank">here</a>:

Quote:

The Western church, starting from the perverted and almost Manichaean ascetic principle, that the married state is incompatible with clerical dignity and holiness, instituted a vigorous effort at the end of the fourth century, to make celibacy, which had hitherto been left to the option of individuals, the universal law of the priesthood; thus placing itself in direct contradiction to the Levitical law, to which in other respects it made so much account of conforming. The law, however, though repeatedly enacted, could not for a long time be consistently enforced. The canon, already mentioned, of the Spanish council of Elvira in 305, was only provincial. The first prohibition of clerical marriage, which laid claim to universal ecclesiastical authority, at least in the West, proceeded in 385 from the Roman church in the form of a decretal letter of the bishop Siricius to Himerius, bishop of Tarragona in Spain, who had referred several questions of discipline to the Roman bishop for decision. It is significant of the connection between the celibacy of the clergy and the interest of the hierarchy, that the first properly papal decree, which was issued in the tone of supreme authority, imposed such an unscriptural, unnatural, and morally dangerous restriction. Siricius contested the appeal of dissenting parties to the Mosaic law, on the ground that the Christian priesthood has to stand not merely for a time, but perpetually, in the service of the sanctuary, and that it is not hereditary, like the Jewish; and he ordained that second marriage and marriage with a widow should incapacitate for ordination, and that continuance in the married state after ordination should be punished with deposition. And with this punishment he threatened not bishops only, but also presbyters and deacons. Leo the Great subsequently, extended the requirement of celibacy even to the subdiaconate. The most eminent Latin church fathers, Ambrose, Jerome, and even Augustine�though the last with more moderation�advocated the celibacy of priests. Augustine, with Eusebius of Vercella before him (370), united their clergy in a cloister life, and gave them a monastic stamp; and Martin of Tours, who was a monk from the first, carried his monastic life into his episcopal office. The councils of Italy, Africa, Spain, and Gaul followed the lead of Rome. The synod of Clermont, for example (a.d. 535), declared in its twelfth canon: "No one ordained deacon or priest may continue matrimonial intercourse. He is become the brother of her who was his wife. But since some, inflamed with lust, have rejected the girdle of the warfare [of Christ], and returned to marriage intercourse, it is ordered that such must lose their office forever." Other councils, like that of Tours, 461, were content with forbidding clergymen, who begat children after ordination, to administer the sacrifice of the mass, and with confining the law of celibacy ad altiorem gradum.

до свидония.

Toto · 05-07-2002, 09:12 AM

Don't blame St. Peter - he apparently was married. And there's no evidence any cleric in history had any problem getting laid.

IvanK · 05-07-2002, 11:25 AM

There's a view from the other side <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm" target="_blank">here</a>, though the facts above are basically correct. These days Catholic deacons can in fact be married, and many are.

Egoinos · 05-07-2002, 06:52 PM

There are some married Catholic priests, as well.
A priest from another denomination (especially anglicans) who converts to being a Catholic priest, who is already married, is allowed to stay married, because they don't agree with divorce

A proceeding which is causing no end of rumblings among those wanting priests to be allowed to get married.

Thor Q. Mada · 05-07-2002, 07:00 PM

I don't think that there is a direct relationship between celibacy and peadophilia. I just think that more peadophiles have joined the priesthood than a normal population segment would have because the church as we all know protects their own, and also the priesthood offers the opportunity to work with young people.
In short, a lay discovered peadophile is out of a job immediately, but a priest peadophile is protected.
I think that is the essence.

copernicus · 05-07-2002, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:
My BIL's mom claims that priests weren't required to be celibate until sometime within the last 70 years or so. She says that celibacy was dictated by the Vatican because they didn't want the weathly priests that were high up in the organization to have someone other than the Church to leave their money to when they died.

As I understand it, this is largely correct, but the practice goes back to at least the 10th century. The problem was that priests tended to leave their inheritances to children, who were often less inclined to donate estates to the church. The church acquired vast amounts of wealth through this policy. Here is a statement on the subject from Raymond Grosswirth's essay on <a href="http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/religious/celibacy.html" target="_blank">Celibacy</a>:

Quote:

When one looks at the history of celibacy in the Catholic Church, it soon becomes apparent that this state of life became mandatory due to financial considerations, not because priests were supposed to emulate Christ by remaining single. When one focuses more specifically upon the medieval period, we can clearly see that church property was donated by kings and princes in exchange for faithful service. A controversy arose when married priests in turn left this property to their heirs. To make a long story short, celibacy soon followed as a requirement for ordination, so as to prevent such property transactions between heirs. (There was nothing theological in the celibacy directive.) As a side note to this history, it is interesting to note that the imposition of celibacy in 1139 was not the end of married priests. We now know that secret marriages took place after 1139, whereby married priests continued to serve. Unfortunately, the Council of Trent and the infamous Inquisition sought out such marriages, whereupon Trent served as a catalyst for several centuries of mandatory celibacy. (A sad commentary indeed!)

05-07-2002, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:
My BIL's mom claims that priests weren't required to be celibate until sometime within the last 70 years or so. She says that celibacy was dictated by the Vatican because they didn't want the weathly priests that were high up in the organization to have someone other than the Church to leave their money to when they died.

Rich priests? Catholics are not required to donate 10% and when I was a kid pennies were given to the church. On special occasions a silver plate was used to collect and the ssilent message was that pennies were not welcome.

How about brothers and nuns. How would they get rich and become wealthy? How about the Fransicans who used to run a "free mass" for those who could not afford pennies for the Church?

05-07-2002, 08:17 PM

Here is an argument in favor of celibacy for priests. The sacrament of priesthood is an extraordinay sacrament symbolizing the seventh day of creation.

Revelations talks about no marriage in heaven. Heaven is when the kundalini is raised to the 7th level (we call this Coronation or Sahasrara; Pure Reason is blue) and away from the crotch where it has been dormant except for the occasional call to action during sex. As the kundalini is raised the 'bloodflow' to the crotch is reduced and celibacy is easily mastered by the priest who is called to be at the fourth level of chakra during ordination (which is celebrated with the "laying on of hands)." The fourth level is aimed to raise the spiritual awakening to the heart in which the ordinate is envisioned by a surrounding light and seeing this divine light he becomes filled with wonder and desires to raise the kundalini to its fullness of the seventh level (on towards Easter which is the seventh day on which darkness night did not follow the day). It is expected that after the fourth level his mind does not return to the "lower centers" because when the image of night is gone also its invitation to participate is gone ("no night" Rev.22:5 because of the everlasting light).

The above makes celibacy a necessary condition for a priest (if indeed he is called to be a priest prior to ordination), and proof of ignorance since only Catholicism is aware of this fact in Christendom. With all respect, I not wish to insinuate that I defend pedophile priests, but the argument stands that if indeed the kundalini is raised the poor guy would be impotent and if so, who would take care of his girl?

I have a much simpler way to put this but I will save that for some other day.

Skeptictank · 05-08-2002, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
Here is an argument in favor of celibacy for priests. The sacrament of priesthood is an extraordinay sacrament symbolizing the seventh day of creation.

Revelations talks about no marriage in heaven. Heaven is when the kundalini is raised to the 7th level (we call this Coronation or Sahasrara; Pure Reason is blue) and away from the crotch where it has been dormant except for the occasional call to action during sex. As the kundalini is raised the 'bloodflow' to the crotch is reduced and celibacy is easily mastered by the priest who is called to be at the fourth level of chakra during ordination (which is celebrated with the "laying on of hands)." The fourth level is aimed to raise the spiritual awakening to the heart in which the ordinate is envisioned by a surrounding light and seeing this divine light he becomes filled with wonder and desires to raise the kundalini to its fullness of the seventh level (on towards Easter which is the seventh day on which darkness night did not follow the day). It is expected that after the fourth level his mind does not return to the "lower centers" because when the image of night is gone also its invitation to participate is gone ("no night" Rev.22:5 because of the everlasting light).

The above makes celibacy a necessary condition for a priest (if indeed he is called to be a priest prior to ordination), and proof of ignorance since only Catholicism is aware of this fact in Christendom. With all respect, I not wish to insinuate that I defend pedophile priests, but the argument stands that if indeed the kundalini is raised the poor guy would be impotent and if so, who would take care of his girl?

I have a much simpler way to put this but I will save that for some other day.

WTF?!?!?!

I sense serious drugs in action here........

05-07-2002, 08:23 AM	#1
phlebas Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Metropolis Posts: 916	Where did celibacy for Catholic priests come from? I was having this discussion recently with my sister and her husband (who is vaguely Catholic). We were shaking our heads sadly at recent reports of child abuse by the priesthood. And of course we started discussing whether this was brought on by their vows of celibacy, and they eventually crack all over the first victim they can find. My BIL's mom claims that priests weren't required to be celibate until sometime within the last 70 years or so. She says that celibacy was dictated by the Vatican because they didn't want the weathly priests that were high up in the organization to have someone other than the Church to leave their money to when they died. That's a very cynical view of Catholic bureaucracy, especially coming as it did from an actual Catholic. I wish it were true But I'm pretty sure it's not. However, it occurs to me that I have no idea when and why the celibacy thing started. Surely it didn't start with Peter? He couldn't get laid, so he figured no one else should, either? Anyway, I've done some cursory web searches about this with no luck. I figured some bright person here would know something about this. Anyone have any idea when and why the vows of celibacy became S.O.P. for priests?

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05-07-2002, 09:12 AM	#3
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Don't blame St. Peter - he apparently was married. And there's no evidence any cleric in history had any problem getting laid.

05-07-2002, 11:25 AM	#4
IvanK Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Posts: 2,016	There's a view from the other side <a href="http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03481a.htm" target="_blank">here</a>, though the facts above are basically correct. These days Catholic deacons can in fact be married, and many are.

05-07-2002, 06:52 PM	#5
Egoinos Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 423	There are some married Catholic priests, as well. A priest from another denomination (especially anglicans) who converts to being a Catholic priest, who is already married, is allowed to stay married, because they don't agree with divorce A proceeding which is causing no end of rumblings among those wanting priests to be allowed to get married.

05-07-2002, 07:00 PM	#6
Thor Q. Mada Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Asia Posts: 3,558	I don't think that there is a direct relationship between celibacy and peadophilia. I just think that more peadophiles have joined the priesthood than a normal population segment would have because the church as we all know protects their own, and also the priesthood offers the opportunity to work with young people. In short, a lay discovered peadophile is out of a job immediately, but a priest peadophile is protected. I think that is the essence.

05-07-2002, 08:17 PM	#9
Amos Guest Posts: n/a	Here is an argument in favor of celibacy for priests. The sacrament of priesthood is an extraordinay sacrament symbolizing the seventh day of creation. Revelations talks about no marriage in heaven. Heaven is when the kundalini is raised to the 7th level (we call this Coronation or Sahasrara; Pure Reason is blue) and away from the crotch where it has been dormant except for the occasional call to action during sex. As the kundalini is raised the 'bloodflow' to the crotch is reduced and celibacy is easily mastered by the priest who is called to be at the fourth level of chakra during ordination (which is celebrated with the "laying on of hands)." The fourth level is aimed to raise the spiritual awakening to the heart in which the ordinate is envisioned by a surrounding light and seeing this divine light he becomes filled with wonder and desires to raise the kundalini to its fullness of the seventh level (on towards Easter which is the seventh day on which darkness night did not follow the day). It is expected that after the fourth level his mind does not return to the "lower centers" because when the image of night is gone also its invitation to participate is gone ("no night" Rev.22:5 because of the everlasting light). The above makes celibacy a necessary condition for a priest (if indeed he is called to be a priest prior to ordination), and proof of ignorance since only Catholicism is aware of this fact in Christendom. With all respect, I not wish to insinuate that I defend pedophile priests, but the argument stands that if indeed the kundalini is raised the poor guy would be impotent and if so, who would take care of his girl? I have a much simpler way to put this but I will save that for some other day.

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