Mageth

It seems that answering the question in the first place instead of launching into a tirade might have been a better investment of your time, if that's what you're concerned about.

Apikorus

Tov meod, John! I'm glad that didn't take you quite all day to research.

The fact that every known interpreter of the Hebrew Bible up until the Enlightenment had insisted that it did mandate a geocentric system doesn't help your case much. Of course, it could be that all those godly people were simply wrong in their interpretation, and that - coincidentally, I'm sure! - they came to recognize the errors in their hermeneutical procedures just as compelling empirical scientific evidence of heliocentrism became available. That's all very possible. Even probable, perhaps. Of course, it is also possible that Christians are to this very day misunderstanding the bible's message on salvation, and that they are all going to hell.

If Isa 40:22 is saying that God is actively stretching the heavens "as a curtain", then that is quite wrong scientifically, since the "heavens" form no curtain-like barrier at all. Of course, people who are inclined to read the bible fundamentalistically are wont to take expressions literally or metaphorically as suits their purpose. And there's quite a bit that the bible gets quite wrong, including dozens of simple numerical contradictions (most likely due to scribal error which, alas, divine protection could not or would not forestay). Similarly, no credible scientist believes that the sun and moon were created on the same (fourth) day. Etc.

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: Apikorus ]</p>

Vanderzyden

Mageth,

I see that you avoiding the "rolling eyes" and "brick walls" in this post. For that, I give you thanks.

I do think I need to press the issue a bit further with you, since I must understand if you have a genuine interest in having a respectful, efficient discussion:


Please tell me why I should spend more time in dialogue with you.


At this point, I am fully justified in making this request, since the majority of the posts which you address to me continue to be diversionary and insulting. I need to determine if I can reasonably expect a marginal return-on-investment if I am to engage you in a serious, committed fashion once more.


John

galiel

If they claim that Jacqueline Susann (the "Great One") is God, then, yes. But if your argument is that what humans write is not infallible, especially regarding the liberties we take in our fictional literary works, then we all agree. That is the whole point about the Bible.

DivineOb

I've heard there are a number of attestations to this miracle, but maybe they aren't so easy to find online? Anyway, here is what I found so far

But probably the most popular miracle which has been passed down by the
hadith and fomented by Muslims even today, is the splitting of the moon
by
Muhammad. It is recorded in Sahih Muslim IV, pg.1467:

This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of `Abdullah b.
Mas'ud (who said): We were along with Allah's Messenger (may
peace be upon him) at Mina that moon was split up into two. One
of its parts was behind the mountain and the other one was on
this side of the mountain. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon
him) said to us: `Bear witness to this.'"

That is one account in which two people attest to the miracle. A second account of this miracle is the reference to it in the Qur'an, which provides the attestation to this miracle from Muhammed.

The contraversy regarding whether Muhammed performed this miracle or not is, I think, centered on whether Muhammed performed the miracle or whether Allah was the one to perform the miracle... not so much whether it happened or not...

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: DivineOb ]

Ok, I just found the gold mine of attestations to this miracle.

The following narrations and eye witnesses talk directly about Noble Verse 54:1 from the Noble Quran: "The Hour (of Judgement) is nigh, and the moon is cleft asunder. (The Noble Quran, 54:1)"

Let us look at those eye witnesses' narrations:

Narrated Abdullah bin Masud: "During the lifetime of the Prophet the moon was split into two parts and on that the Prophet said, 'Bear witness (to thus).' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 830)"

Narrated Anas: "That the Meccan people requested Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle, and so he showed them the splitting of the moon. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 831)"

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: "The moon was split into two parts during the lifetime of the Prophet. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Virtues and Merits of the Prophet (pbuh) and his Companions, Volume 4, Book 56, Number 832)"

Narrated Anas bin Malik: "The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 208)"

Narrated 'Abdullah: "The moon was split ( into two pieces ) while we were with the Prophet in Mina. He said, "Be witnesses." Then a Piece of the moon went towards the mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 209)"

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas: "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle the moon was split (into two places). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 210)"

Narrated 'Abdullah: "The moon was split (into two pieces). (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 211)"

Narrated Abdullah: "Five things have passed, i.e. the smoke, the defeat of the Romans, the splitting of the moon, Al-Batsha (the defeat of the infidels in the battle of Badr) and Al-Lizam (the punishment)' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 345)"

Narrated Abdullah: "Allah sent (the Prophet) Muhammad and said:--

'Say, No wage do I ask of you for this (Qur'an) nor am I one of the pretenders (i.e. a person who pretends things which do not exist). (38.68) When Allah's Apostle saw Quraish standing against him, he said, "O Allah! Help me against them by afflicting them with seven years of famine similar to the seven years (of famine) of Joseph. So they were afflicted with a year of drought that destroyed everything, and they ate bones and hides. (One of them said), "And they ate hides and dead animals, and (it seemed to them that) something like smoke was coming out of the earth. So Abu Sufyan came to the Prophet and said, "O Muhammad! Your people are on the verge of destruction! Please invoke Allah to relieve them." So the Prophet invoked Allah for them (and the famine disappeared). He said to them. "You will revert (to heathenism) after that." 'Abdullah then recited:

'Then watch you for the Day that the sky will bring forth a kind of smoke plainly visible.......but truly you will revert (to disbelief).' He added, "Will the punishment be removed from them in the Hereafter? The smoke and the grasp and the Al-Lizam have all passed." One of the sub-narrator said, "The splitting of the moon." And another said, "The defeat of the Romans (has passed)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 349)"

Narrated 'Abdullah: "Five things have passed: Al-Lizam, the defeat of the Romans, the mighty grasp, the splitting of the moon, and the smoke. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 350)"

Narrated Ibn Masud: "During the lifetime of Allah's Apostle the moon was split into two parts; one part remained over the mountain, and the other part went beyond the mountain. On that, Allah's Apostle said, 'Witness this miracle.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 387)"

Narrated Abdullah: "The moon was cleft asunder while we were in the company of the Prophet, and it became two parts. The Prophet said, 'Witness, witness (this miracle).' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 388)"

Narrated Ibn Abbas: "The moon was cleft asunder during the lifetime of the Prophet. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 389)"

Narrated Anas: "The people of Mecca asked the Prophet to show them a sign (miracle). So he showed them (the miracle) of the cleaving of the moon. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 390)"

Narrated Anas: "The moon was cleft asunder into two parts. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Prophetic Commentary on the Qur'an (Tafseer of the Prophet (pbuh)), Volume 6, Book 60, Number 391)"

"Abdullah said that five signs have (become things) of the past (and have proved the truth of the Holy Prophet): (Enveloping) by the smoke, inevitable (punishment to the Meccans at Badr), (the victory of) Rome, (violent) seizing (of the Meccans at Badr) and (the splitting up of) the Moon. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book Giving Description of the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell (Kitab Sifat Al-Qiyamah wa'l Janna wa'n-Nar), Book 039, Number 6721)"

"Abu Ma'mar reported on the authority of Abdullah that the moon was split up during lifetime by Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) in two parts and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Bear testimony to this. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book Giving Description of the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell (Kitab Sifat Al-Qiyamah wa'l Janna wa'n-Nar), Book 039, Number 6724)"

"This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abdullah b. Mas'ud (who said): We were along with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) at Mina, that moon was split up into two. One of its parts was behind the mountain and the other one was on this side of the mountain. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to us: Bear witness to this. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book Giving Description of the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell (Kitab Sifat Al-Qiyamah wa'l Janna wa'n-Nar), Book 039, Number 6725)"

"Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported that the moon was split up in two parts during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). The mountain covered one of its parts and one part of it was above the mountain and Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Bear witness to this. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book Giving Description of the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell (Kitab Sifat Al-Qiyamah wa'l Janna wa'n-Nar), Book 039, Number 6726)"

"Anas reported that the people of Mecca demanded from Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) that he should show them (some) signs (miracles) and he showed them the splitting of the moon. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Anas through another chain of transmitters. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book Giving Description of the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell (Kitab Sifat Al-Qiyamah wa'l Janna wa'n-Nar), Book 039, Number 6728)"

"Anas reported that the moon was split up in two parts and in the hadith recorded in Abu Dawud, the words are: 'The moon was split up into two parts during the life of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him).' (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book Giving Description of the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell (Kitab Sifat Al-Qiyamah wa'l Janna wa'n-Nar), Book 039, Number 6729)"

"Ibn 'Abbas reported that the moon was split up during the lifetime of Allah's Messenger (may peace he upon him). (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book Giving Description of the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell (Kitab Sifat Al-Qiyamah wa'l Janna wa'n-Nar), Book 039, Number 6730)"

[ October 24, 2002: Message edited by: DivineOb ]</p>

diana

Vanderzyden,

You and I have no history that I am aware of. Therefore, I suspect you have no reason to avoid answering me when I respectfully request that you respond to Mageth's question:

Those Who Lurk are wondering if you can indeed answer the question.

Thanks in advance,

d

lpetrich

Here is Bob Schadewald's article on <a href="http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/febible.htm" target="_blank">The Flat-Earth Bible</a>. That source mentions:

1 Chronicles 16:30: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable.”
Psalm 93:1: “Thou hast fixed the earth immovable and firm ...”
Psalm 96:10: “He has fixed the earth firm, immovable ...”
Psalm 104:5: “Thou didst fix the earth on its foundation so that it never can be shaken.”
Isaiah 45:18: “...who made the earth and fashioned it, and himself fixed it fast...”

In effect, the Earth is stationary in some cosmic sense.

The noncanonical book 1 Enoch goes into much greater detail about astronomy than any of the Bible's canonical books, and it clarifies several Biblical references.

Apikorus's mention of the Sun hurrying from its setting place to its rising place agrees with the cosmology of 1 Enoch; in it, the sky is a bowl overhead, and the Sun moves along its rim from its setting place to its rising place.

Jack the Bodiless

Vanderzyden:

In your discussions with ME, I take it that you have conceded defeat?

You have consistently evaded virtually every issue which I have attempted to discuss with you. I presume that you do not have the answers that you claimed to have.

The content of your posts is largely distractive, Vanderzyden. You appear at random, pepper your response with insults, and make light of the issue. When your opponent turns on you to force you to commit fully to the discussion and substantiate your claims, you tuck tail and run (or cry foul). This is the mark of a man who thinks life a game. Maybe you are serious, but so far I have seen no indication.

This is, of course, NOT an ad-hominem attack. I do not make "ad hom" attacks. I challenge you to find one single remark in all of my posts that may be conclusively shown to be an insult.

Jack the Bodiless

Biblical flat_Earthism persisted right through to the very last book, written at a time when knowledge of the spherical Earth had been around for centuries. There is a rather obvious parallel with creationists, still denying the common knowledge of the age of the Earth and humanity's descent from other primates long after it has been demonstrated and accepted by those not blinded by religious dogma.
The heavens are a dome (the Dome of the Firmament) with the stars as little lights attached to it: they can be shaken off and the dome/tent rolled up like a scroll.
Apologists might like to pretend this is a meteorite rather than a star, but Revelation is quite clearly discussing regular stars here:

JohnV

Hi Rad! I heard you were hanging out here. I saw the funniest thing today - Clemson isn't getting any posts, and they're blaming us for it. Guess we're going to all the christians on the internet and telling them to stay away, or something. I've been banned there - maybe if they want christian input they shouldn't ban Christians!

Anyway, on this topic, here's a fun case of an atheist getting <a href="http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/52573.html" target="_blank">spanked</a> on the pi=3 thing.

Also, as has been pointed out, the bat and insect bit is merely definitional.