butswana

I do believe that the romans nailed the feet from the side, through the heel. So the feet are wrong too. Imagine that.

sullster

Excellent post! I could not have said it better. You are a moderator who kicks ass.

I love pointing out the nihilism at the core of all christian sects. The fundy god burns you for not believing in him and the catholic god cuts your skin and makes you bleed.

There are enough nasty brutal humans in the world, why the hell do we need gods like that? Why are humans so miserable as to believe in such dieties? Ugh, it is frustrating.

Thor Q. Mada

You might want to read this:
FLEEING SEX SCANDAL COVERAGE, POPE CANONIZES HUCKSTER FRIAR
Vatican Reversed Stance On Cult Figure Padre Pio

Before one of the largest crowds to assemble in front of St. Peters
in Rome, Pope John Paul II yesterday officially proclaimed sainthood
for a controversial Capuchin friar known as Padre Pio.

Decked out in gold and white vestments and wearing a jewel-encrusted
gold hat, the pontiff celebrated a two-hour long solemn Mass of
Canonization and declared that Pio's name was inscribed "in the annals
of the saints," and that the church would celebrate his legacy with an
annual day of devotion every September 23.

In addition to being one of the largest celebrations of its kind in
the history of the Vatican, Pio's elevation to sainthood is also one
of the fastest and most controversial. John Paul has canonized 458
people during his tenure as Pope, raising charges that the Roman
Catholic Church is now a "saint factory" manufacturing household
deities for popular worship. That rate of sanctification exceeds the
number of those elevated to sainthood by all previous popes over the
past 407 years when the Vatican began keeping an official archive.

None of this prevented crowds from jamming St. Peter's square,
though. An immense portrait of Padre Pio gazed down from the facade
of the Basilica in what the New York Times described as "a moment of
intense jubilation."

"Gone for a moment here were worldly preoccupations, like soccer's
World Cup, and troubling concerns about priests accused of abusing
minors," noted staff writer John Tagliabue.

Despite the festive atmosphere, and the enthusiasm of a virtual cult
surrounding the figure of Padre Pio, there are concerns that the
church has, in effect, ordained a new patron Saint of Holy
Rehabilitation. Indeed, Padre Pio's reputation over the decades has
-- even in many official church quarters -- been that of a womanizer,
fraud, and mentally ill huckster who claimed extraordinary paranormal
powers. The padre was investigated by the Holy Office over a dozen
times, and at one point banned from celebrating the Mass in public,
receiving visitors, or talking to women alone. Correspondent John
Allen of the National Catholic Reporter newspaper recently wrote, "The
whispered consensus on Padre Pio in the halls of the Vatican was that
he was at best a naive hysteric, at worst a con man."

Why all the fuss?

Padre Pio was born Francesco Forgione on May 25, 1887 in a
small town north of Naples. He developed an early fixation with the
Catholic faith, and by age 11 announced that he wanted to join the
Capuchin order of monks. He was ordained in 1910 and promptly, says
Allen, "acquired a reputation for special spiritual gifts."

One was entering trance-like states during the rite of the Mass. At
age 31, he began reporting the "stigmata," cuts or lesions on his
hands, feet and side that seemed to mimic the wounds attributed to
Christ in the biblical tale of the crucifixion. Miracles -- or at
least claims of miracles -- soon followed. Padre Pio, it was said,
could give sight to the blind, even predict the future of those whose
confessions he heard.

The church quickly began the first of a series of official
investigations into the activities and claims of Padre Pio. A bishop
accused the Capuchin order of using reports of such incredible events
to make money. Popes Benedict XV and Pius XI ordered further
investigations. When Pius attempted to have the charismatic priest,
who by that time had developed a cult-like following, relocated to
another friary, 5,000 of Padre Pio's supporters rioted and Rome backed
down.

The claim of the stigmata was considered the most serious, however, by
church authorities. The markings on the side, hands and feet signify
the wounds inflicted on Jesus according to biblical references. St.
Francis of Assisi (1182-1226) is considered by the church to be the
first "authentic" stigmatist, although a man from Oxford, England
claimed similar wounds two years before. A story quickly evolved of
how Francis and a handful of followers climbed Mt. Alverno in the
Apennine range, and after forty days of prayer and fasting were
rewarded with a vision of Christ on the cross. St. Francis then
reportedly received the stigmatic markings.

There was a surge of stigmata claims in the thirteenth century, and
within 100 years of St. Francis's death, no fewer than 20 cases were
reported. By 1908, that figure had climbed to 321, with one-third of
them reported in Italy and most of the rest originating in France,
Spain and Portugal. In later years, the phenomenon of the stigmata
would cross the oceans, and claims were made by people in the United
States, Australia and England. Most were associated with Roman
Catholics.

Some of the wounds reportedly bled, while others were less spectacular
and consisted only of impressions or markings from the heads of nails
or something else which pressed upon the victim's flesh. They were
rectangular, or straight, or consisted of multiple slash marks. Some
stigmatists even presented wounds on the forehead or back. Marks
would also appear on the wrists, in keeping with some of the
revisionist claims about how crucifixion was performed during the
Roman occupation of Palestine.

But imitation of Christ's death wounds was not the only extraordinary
claim associated with Padre Pio. In addition to reports of
pre-cognition, Pio was said to possess the ability to teleport himself
through "bilocation." Reports of these paranormal appearances
included Genoa, Rome, Uruguay and even Milwaukee. It was also claimed
that the monk could repair broken windows with the mere wave of his
hand.

Padre Pio was also an enthusiastic "penitente" or self-flagellant, a
practice which some theorize leads to altered state of consciousness
and fuels inner feelings of wholeness and transcendence.

Over the years, investigations even by church officials led to charges
that Pio faked miracles and had sex with women in the confessional
box. Many felt that the friar caused the stigmata by burning his skin
with nitric acid, and used a perfume to create what his credulous
followers described as a pervasive "odor of sanctity" that was said to
surround Pio. A report by journalist Paul Vallely of the New Zealand
Herald newspaper says that Pope John XXIII, suspicious of Pio's
cult-like popularity, authorized the bugging of his confessional. And the
founder of Rome's Catholic University Hospital concluded that Friar
Pio was "an ignorant and self-mutilating psychopath who exploited
people's credulity."

In 1960, Monsignore Carlo Maccari concluded an investigation ordered
by Pope John XXIII. "The 200-page report he compiled," notes the
National Catholic Reporter, "though never published in full, is said
to be devastatingly critical. Vatican gossip long had it that the
'Maccari dossier' was an insuperable obstacle to Padre Pio's
sainthood."

One entry in the file reported that Padre Pio engaged in sexual
activities twice a week with female penitents, "his in hebdomada
copulabat cum muliere..."

In 1992, Italian physician and theologian Agostino Gemelli, who
specialized in the investigation of stigmata cases for the Vatican,
said that Padre Pio was a "hysteric" who inflicted the wounds upon
himself.

The reversal of Padre Pio's fortunes seem to rest on two factors --
his incredible, growing cult-like celebrity status, and the present pontiff,
John Paul II.

The town where Padre Pio's mastery is located, San Giovanni Rotondo,
draws a whopping 8 million visitors annually -- a number greater than
those visiting the shrine of Our Lady of Lourdes, and second only to
the church of our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico. Pio's followers number
in the millions. His 1968 funeral was attended by over 100,000
believers, and his 1999 beatification attracted over 300,000.
Yesterday's canonization drew an even larger crowd, with some
estimates running as high as 500,000 people jamming Vatican square.

San Giovanni has cashed in on the popularity of its favorite friar.
The town has less than 30,000 residents but boasts 87,000 hotel rooms
that are regularly booked. The National Catholic Reporter estimates
that this results in the sale of $2 million in promotional memorabilia
like Padre Pio keychains and statutes, with the local bars and
restaurants taking in $60 million. Annual donations to various sites
and groups associated with Pio's legacy generate about $100 million.

Pope John Paul II has been central to rehabilitating the man who just
a few years ago was considered by many to be a cheap hustler.
Ironically, John Paul receives his medical care at Rome's Gemelli
Hospital, founded by the Vatican investigator who charged Padre Pio
with fraud. The two men had met around 1947 while the future pope was
a young Polish priest. Vatican lore tells had Karol Wojtyla, the man
who would someday be pontiff, asked Padre Pio to pray for a friend who
was reportedly dying of cancer. The man survived.

The beatification and canonization of Padre Pio -- and the tacit
acceptance of the miraculous, paranormal events associated with the
controversial friar -- come at a time when the Vatican finds itself in
competition with energetic Pentecostal and evangelical Protestants.
Pio's paranormal accomplishments appear at times to have more in common
with "signs and wonders" fundamentalism and tent revivalism than
restrained Roman Catholicism. The "saint factory" strategy of
canonizing a record number of personalities for church veneration is
proving to be a media savvy move that encourages and supports growing
public credulity.

Sephiroth

Thanks, you're a good poster as well .

crocodile deathroll

Self flagellation was also very common practice for catholics over the centuries, especially in the middle ages, because the more they believed they suffered on Earth to more like they will be rewarded in the afterlife.

Even today Opus Dei uses a little divice called a "discipline" which in rather like a miniature cat of nine tails that they use to flick over their backs to inflict suffering on themsleves.

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: crocodile deathroll ]</p>

seebs

Hmm. I don't have a strong opinion on exactly where stigmata would appear; they are often depicted as being in the hands. This could argue for fraud, psychosomatic problems, or a divinity that puts the injuries where someone expects them, even if the person is wrong.

Anunnaki

Your 1st two choices are always found to be the case.

Do you really think it`s possible that some divinity is screwing around with the already ruined lives of religious fanatics by making their hands and feet bleed?

[ June 23, 2002: Message edited by: Anunnaki ]</p>