Bumble Bee Tuna

This thread is somewhat for Radorth, and slightly related to the other thread I made a few minutes ago.

If God revealed himself to everyone, so we could actually know he existed, would people be convinced to follow him or not?

On the one hand, atheists are always saying how God should reveal himself, because they want evidence. Theists (I believe I've seen Radorth do this, but maybe I haven't, I don't do a good job of keeping people straight) always respond that God cannot reveal himself, because then people would no longer have free will to believe in him or not because there would be no real choice.

On the other hand, I know I always see Radorth saying something along the lines of "what good would revealing himself do? Look at this Bible verse, where God reveals himself and people still disobey". From this it seems like Radorth thinks that god revealing himself would not make choosing God inevitable, thus free will is maintained. The question then becomes, I suppose, why doesn't he, if it doesn't eliminate free will? I think the answer probably has to do with God "wanting faith" but this explanation is so often intertwined with "wanting people who chose freely to believe in him" that it's hard to differentiate the two.

BTW people who hate Radorth I would like this thread to remain civil if possible...Just a personal request. This applies to Radorth as well, of course.

-B

Philosoft

I don't understand why God makes so much contingent upon mere belief. If God did reveal himself, it would make those who disbelieve in his existence rare indeed. But it would still leave, at least partially free, the decision(s) to love/obey/follow/etc. One might think those decisions to be the really important ones; hell, if all the OT and NT stories are true, I would find the loving and obeying parts at least difficult, if not impossible. That would be a tough decision in its own right, but I am also supposed to believe in God's existence without the use of the very logic and reason that are totally indispensible in my daily life? Impossible.

Seraphim

"... but I am also supposed to believe in God's existence without the use of the very logic and reason that are totally indispensible in my daily life? Impossible. "

My reply : And even if you did all you said is impossible (believe with sense of logic, love etc), it will end within your lifetime. Your children will ask for proof just like you do now and since God probably won't appear to them since He did with you (due to time constraint or maybe lack of proper timing), the question whether God exist will still arise.

So WHY should God appear and reveal Himself since such action will be useless after a generation or two?

stormy313

If god revealed him/herself then I would be even more skeptical of his/her existance than I am now.

I mean, the fact that life is so abundant on the planet tells me that there is MAYBE some sort of force behind it. I am sort of an agnostic, so the idea of god being some sort of "person" or whatever just seems so unlikely. Its seems more likely that she would be more of an abstract lifeforce, slowely allowing the universe to evolve over eons. It would be such a disappointment to me if god suddenly just BOOM... THUNDER... appeared to the world. Would god show up on nightline? Would god make some sort of public service announcement? Or would god just part the clouds like a Terry Gilliam animation with a grey beard in the sky and say "stand up.. i cant stand it when people grovel.. your quest is to find the holy grail"

I am not really trying to put anyone down or be mean or anything. I am only trying to illustrate how outrageous the idea sounds to me. If god suddenly appeared like that, I would be more inclined to think that it was aliens fooking with us. I want better proof than that. Even in the bible it says that the children of Israel saw many miracles yet still grumbled and didn't really believe. Maybe the god of Moses was really aliens playing around with them. But that's a completely different product of someone's imagination.

Cthulhu

God is on that tight of a schedule, eh? Got a dentist's appointment to get to, does he?

Bumble Bee Tuna

What makes it so hard for God to appear to everyone, every generation? He is omnipresent and omnipotent, after all. Or are you saying God is just a little lazy, and it's too much trouble to keep on appearing? It's only to save our eternal souls, after all...no big deal.

-B

Darth Dane

According to teh bible, God did reveal himself to us!

It was in Jesus that God revealed himself.

Now I think that Jesus spoke on behalf of all humans, when he said "I and my father are one"

To make this stick without losing your freewill, it must means that you too are one with your God, and that God allows you to freely choose if what Jesus said was true.

"not a hair would move without the will of God" - St. Augustine(I think)

Now if everything is dependant on the will of God, I can not have a single thought feeling or action without God has willed it so.
If God wills anything you wills, it must mean that God's will IS your will. Namely your God's Will.

If there is to be any coherensy(sp?), we must all partake of the same one reality, and thus the underlying reality is teh same for us all.

You decide what God should express through you!






DD - Love Spliff

Jamie_L

A typical Christian response is: people would still not believe if God appeared to them. I think this is hogwash. It assumes WILLFULLY turning one's back on God, which is not what most atheists are about. I don't even need absolute proof. I just need some sort of evidence that is convincing.

You can bet I'd believe if God made an appearance. You can also bet that an omnipotent and omniscient God could appear in exactly the way needed to convince me.

And we're not talking about one little appearance. The big question is, why is God hidden at all? Why aren't he or his angels appearing all the time? If God was real, and he made everything, and his hand was in all events, and he was concerned with all events, with our belief, and with our well-being, you'd think we'd see him all the time. But no, we don't see him any of the time. At all. Ever.

Makes you wonder...

Jamie

Darth Dane

Unless everything you look at IS what God is, and the way that God reveals himself to you!





DD - Love Spliff

Jamie_L

In that case, God has not revealed himself to me in a way that I recognize as him revealing himself to me.

One can rephrase the question: "If God revealed himself to me in a way that I recognize..."

Which in some respect is all semantics. Practically speaking, if God has not revealed himself to me in a way that I can recognize, he has not revealed himself to me at all.

This, of course, leads to the other great theistic accusation along these lines: Non-believers will never recognize God revealing himself to them, because they refuse to do so. This, however, denies God's omnipotence, as well as assuming a strawman definition of atheist beliefs.

Jamie