scombrid

God has responsibilities? Who's holding him accountable? Why such a round-about invention? He poofed everything into being including the sinfull nature of his creation but he can't or doesn't want to poof things right. The great flood was a failed attempt to eradicate sin from the earth so god decided to give up on the earth and just make sure everybody is ready for after earth. However, that fix, the crucifixion has been unsuccessful at saving everybody. When will he get it right?

Oh, a quick note on the torture of Jesus and his quick death. If jesus was the son of god then any temporary suffering would be an illusion. He is an infinite being, would he really notice a few hours of torture. Also, he lived for 40days without sustenance but the cross killed him faster than average?

Radorth

Tell me another way to prove his love and save unjust people in spite of themselves. It's not round about at all, but simple and absolutely brilliant.

He was still in the flesh. Duh.

Gee, maybe the "unlimited" God wanted to end his suffering a little early.

You geniuses have missed yet another golden opportunity to present the toughest, most rational. least cynical argument against the resurrection, without which occurrence Christianity is nothing more than a wise philosophy.

But then so few skeptics are rational or anything but cynical

The irony is gonna kill me.

Rad

Yellum Notnef

You`ve said this SOOOOO many times here and I can`t help but wonder how much more irony it`s gonna take.

Jayjay

I'll tell you not only one, but three ways God could've achieved the same goal:

1. By snap of His fingers. He's God, after all.
2. Have Jesus die of old age. That way, not only would he have had more opportunities to save people, his death would've been much nicer.
3. Dying by will of his own. Jesus could've just said "okay guys, my work here is almost done, but don't lose the corpse because I'll be back in three days" to his disciples and died on the spot. No pain, just death. After three days he could've come back like he supposedly did and tie the loose ends.

There is nothing brilliant about choosing crucifixion over all other methods, but then again the whole point of a god demanding blood sacrifice because people don't do what he tells them is an utterly ludicruous concept. If you believe in the necessity of sacrificial offerings, I guess you might as well consider whatever other hocus pocus God does "brilliant" as well. It's not as if God's little quirks have to make any sense to us miserable humans, right? If Jesus wanted to save us by smoking pot and burning his bra, he could've done it and atheists be damned for questioning His methods...
:boohoo:
Please don't keep us in anticipation.

JCS

Sabine Grant - Is there any evidence to support that claim?

-RRH-

Okay. I'll take a shot at it.

God, an all-powerful being, capable of doing anything at all, instantly, would be able to achieve any goal, instantly. See, now us humans, as beings that are not all-powerful, sometimes have to use intermediary methods to accomplish our goals. For example, if I want bread, there are certain ways I can get bread. For example, I could walk down the street to the Safeway and purchase a loaf of bread. I could walk a shorter distance and buy bread from the 7-11. I could shoplift bread from either of those two locations. I could even bust into my neighbour's apartment and steal his bread. (Assuming he has bread. I wouldn't know until I checked.) But, I am not able to will bread into being. I have to take part in some intermediary steps. (getting money, walking down the street, paying for bread)

Now, God, as an all-powerful being, capable of doing anything at all, instantly, never needs intermediary steps. If God wanted bread, there is nothing stopping Him from instantly having bread, simply because he wants it. This is what it means to be all-powerful. (Of course, bread itself is often an intermediary step to acquiring a delicious sandwich, but I won't pursue that.) God could presumably also go buy bread from the store. Or, God could steal bread from my neighbour.

But why would God steal bread when He can create bread ex nihilo? If God stole bread from my neighbour, it is because he wanted my neighbour to not have bread. Likewise, the only reason that God would take part in any intermediary steps is because he wanted those intermediary steps to happen.

And so, I make my way back to the crucifixion of Jesus.

Following my train of thought above, whatever goal people ascribe to Jesus' crucifixion is irrelevant. God could easily acheive that goal directly, without using crucifixion as an intermediary step. Jesus being crucified was not a necessary evil. Jesus was crucified so that Jesus would be crucified. God believes that there is an innate goodness to Jesus being crucified.

Now, what is that innate goodness?

Now, what connects perfect love and perfect justice to Jesus' crucifxion? Now, this is where I start to not get it.

There's nothing stopping God from loving people. There's nothing stopping God from being just. God is all-powerful, remember.

What is intrinsic to Jesus' crucifixion that provides me with love? What is intrinsic to Jesus' crucifixion that makes my life just?

Jesus' crucifixion is not a means to an end. All-powerful beings don't have means, only ends. So, Jesus' crucifixion must be intrinsically good. But I don't see anything intrinsically good about it, so I don't see how it could be the actions of an all-powerful being.

(Oh, and as an aside, when one says "geniuses" as a sarcastic putdown, and then criticizes atheists for being cynical, that is what is known on the street as "irony.")

Rhea

Maybe he did it because he thought the ignorant goat herders needed the intermediate step.

(pauses before adding...)

Of course, the only reason they would need the intermediate step is because the all-powerful creator created them to want the intermediate step, bringing us right back to the sound argument above.

winstonjen

Perhaps because the whole story is fabricated, and it would get a better response from the general public if intense suffering was involved, because then it would attract sympathy.

Aerik Von

I did'nt ask to be born and I did'nt sign any fucking deal. I claim no alliegence to this crap.

Hell, I LOVE when they talk about how "tormented" he was. I think a victim of Dr. Mengele suffered twice as much as women giving birth were tortured.

Did she die for my sins too? She probably hurt more than Jesus did!

winstonjen

Not only that, but Xians claim that Jesus was willing to die for our sins.

According to the bible, Jesus prayed for hours trying to GET OUT OF BEING SACRIFICED.