Ruy Lopez

Fibonacci numbers and Golden Ratio

Have the following questions for natural scientists, mathematicians and others who may want to contribute.

1)How seriously do professionals, in their field of study, take fibonacci numbers and the golden ratio? (These two terms are explained early in the link provided below.)

2)If not taken seriously, why not?

3)If yes, what significant or useful contribution do they provide to your particular discipline?

I understand many of the applications described in the link which is among the simpler ones that I have found on the subject. Other sites are too mathematical for me.

http://www.branta.connectfree.co.uk/fibonacci.htm

I use fibonacci numbers and the golden ratios .618, .381 and .236 in a fairly simple and limited way for stock market investing. It is a minor part of my armory of tools.

Am really asking what else are they good for. Are there more sublime ideas in there I can use?

pz

Huh? How?
I'm a developmental biologist. The sequence and ratios describe a common pattern of growth.

Feather

As of the tail end of my first year of grad school (physics) I have yet to see these ratios or sequences put to any application in my classes.

liquid

Hmmm, it all depends on what you mean by a use. A lot of concepts are very useful, without really being used themselves! Concepts are not tools.

Still, I can think of many instances where unusual number sequences or commonly appearing numbers are used. I find it somewhat strange that you ask if these are taken seriously - it's not a matter of opinion, they just simply exist as concepts!

The golden ratio is commonly used by architects for buildings and painters for canvas sizing because it is know to have an aesthetic appeal.

There are many other numbers similar to the golden ratio in the fact that they pop up all over mathmatics. Examples include pi, which of course is used for all sorts of simple everyday geometric (and non-geometric) calculations. Or there is e, the counterpart of natural logarithms, which are used for all sorts of tasks in computers.

The fibbonacci sequence, as already mentioned, can tell you how things like pineapples grow! Not sure it's so immediately useful, but then it does underpin investment concepts. I believe some people in my office might have some interest in it from the point of behavioural robot control.

Anyway, I'm sure you can find stuff on the web. mathworld.wolfram.com might be a first place to go.

The thing I think you should keep in mind is that most mathematical 'tricks' are, in isolation, pretty useless, but they can be developed upon. You could declare a set of axioms to be practically useless concepts, but then they contain whole worlds of mathematics within them...

Majestyk

mathworld.wolfram.com Great site. Thanks, Liquid.

liquid

Yes it really is! Best mathematical resource I've ever seen on the web, although it certainly isn't afraid of the complicated stuff. But the optical illusions and so on are quite nice. It's pleasing to see someone who is a)rich and b)a genius spend some of his resources on the public - although I think most of the credit in terms of the work goes to the chap who actually runs the mini-site. I can't remember his name right now though!

I've read his book too.... fascinating, important, but I am yet to be convinced of the hyperbolic claims he makes about it applying to the entirety of science. That doesn't mean I don't think there is anything in it though.

Wounded King

I work in the field of developmental biology and the occurrence of fibonacci sequences in flower development and the golden ratio in the spiralling of shells are just two examples.

An excellent book on this subject is 'On growth and form' by D'arcy Thompson. This is rather an old book now, there are several more modern texts on the same topics though. Another interesting mathematical efect is that of the Reaction -diffusion systems which Alan Turing described and which appear to be important in the patterning of many animals coats.

Ruy Lopez

quote:
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Originally posted by Ruy Lopez

I use fibonacci numbers and the golden ratios .618, .381 and .236 in a fairly simple and limited way for stock market investing. It is a minor part of my armory of tools.
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Huh? How?

You sound surprised. It's used to anticipate and calculate the retracement of the price of a stock, commodity or index after a primary move (move in the direction of major trend). An example;

Say we have a strong market and a stock would move from $10 to $30 in 8 months. Stock price does not move in a straight line; it would get to $30 using waves.

Typically, the price would move from $10 to $15 then back to $11 during the first 3 months. The next three months, it would climb to $25 and retrace to $20; and in the 3rd three -month period reach $30.

Let's round off numbers as I do not have a calculator. The first retracement from $15 to $11 uses the .236 golden ratio. The next from $25 to $20 uses the .618 ratio. It's usefulness lies in anticipation. Without the knowledge of "normal retracements" the investor or trader might panic.

From Liquid;

I find it somewhat strange that you ask if these are taken seriously - it's not a matter of opinion, they just simply exist as concepts!

Probably a difference in our pre-occupations and lack of knowledge on my part. In other threads here at IIDB, I suggested the existence of cycles or waves from minute to minute market movements to waves as long as 60 years. I know that these interlocking waves from the smallest to the largest observable exist because I use them to make money. However, economists and mathematicians do not take them seriously. Fine with me; there's less competition.

I did not know if scientists take Fibonacci seriously; that's why I asked.

Wounded King

Have you seen the film Pi Ruy, it sounds like it would be right up your street.

pz

This sounds like numerology. What is the underlying causal relationship that would predispose prices to follow this pattern?