Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Opera Nut · 08-09-2003, 08:48 PM

Milton, if you don't believe in the Trinity, then you are a Unitarian Christian. There is a subgroup of the Unitarian Universalist denomination of Boston that is called the Association of U-U Christians, or something like that.

The main denominational website is www.uua.org/

There are several subgroups of Unitarian Universalists. "Universalist" means believing in Universal Salvation. Both these concepts were started by Michael Servetus of Transylvania in the 1500s. He wrote indignant letters to John Calvin about this, whereupon Calvin invited him to Geneva for a debate and promptly barbecued him at the stake with green wood, so it would be slow and painful.

The U-U Christians are at one end of the U-U spectrum, and at the other end is CUUPS (Covenant of U-U Pagans).

Good luck in finding philosophical company.

Milton · 08-09-2003, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by JEST2ASK
Thanks for the additional input ... However

John 1-3 : In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him. nothing was made that was made [emphasis mine].

This and other such issues further convince me that "Doctrine" is subjective ... even if one "assumes" the validity of the Bible

I will not go into detail with you as to why your quote does not prove anything you may think it does. But I will let you know that not only God the Father is the carrier of title "God." There are many, many more who have the title.

Moses, Samuel, the Isrealites, Angels, etc.

So the idea that Jesus would be also a divine being (God), doesn't speak in support of the Trinity. The Trinity was a weak attempt of some (not all) of the early Christians to explain how there is no God [like Yahweh], but there are other Gods (or divine beings). It was just a Jewish superstition that got passed down into the Christian concept of "Oneness." Of all things, this was the one they chose to take.

The Bible does not teach that there are no other divine beings, or as they are referred to as 'gods' or Elohim. The statement that 'there is none like Him' or 'none besides Him' is to show that God, Yahweh--the Father--is above all beings, and that He is the only Creator. If this was not the case, then the use of Elohim would have been limited to only Yahweh. But it is a fact that it was used for humans as well as for Angels, and even for Baal. So it is no surprise to me that it would be used for Jesus--after all, it is the Son of God.

Quote:

I also want to thank you for the depth of explaination RE Speaking in tongues

:notworthy :notworthy

It would be pointless for me to go into all the problems with that doctrine, since you aren't even a professed christian. That is why I just wanted give you a simple and quick reference. If you really want to know the reasons for not accepting this, then you probably would be better off doing a search on the internet, I am sure you will get lots of info regarding this debate.

Biff the unclean · 08-09-2003, 09:31 PM

Ah yes, Souperman, the Trinity.
You couldn't throw a rock at first century Hellenism without hitting a Trinity. There were all sorts of them among the Pagan gods.
My guess to which one the Christians borrowed would be the Dionysian Trinity because it consisted of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The father was Zeus, the son was Dionysos (whose name means "Born Again") and the Holy Ghost was Semele.
Dionysos descended into Hades and brought Semele (his human mother) to heaven

Opera Nut · 08-09-2003, 09:33 PM

Mark Twain in Letters from the Earth, goes into God saying that "you shall have no other Gods before me".

It doesn't say you can't have OTHER equal Gods and other subordinate Gods.

Just trying to muddy the waters here............[[grin]]

AJ113 · 08-09-2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Milton
I am a fundamentalist, but I have never been convinced of any of that garbage. In fact, I remember that I even tried to convince myself that the Trinity was a true doctrine. But I never did accept it.

By "true" I assume that you mean "in the bible." Please correct me if I am wrong.

If my assumption is correct, then I trust you have maintained consistency by subscribing to all the doctrines that ARE "true?"

Milton · 08-09-2003, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AJ113
By "true" I assume that you mean "in the bible." Please correct me if I am wrong.

If my assumption is correct, then I trust you have maintained consistency by subscribing to all the doctrines that ARE "true?"

I don't understand what you are saying. Yes, the doctrine is not true Christian doctrine, as prescribed by the Scriptures. But I don't know what you mean by 'subscribing to all the doctrines that are true' [?].

AJ113 · 08-10-2003, 12:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Milton
I don't understand what you are saying. Yes, the doctrine is not true Christian doctrine, as prescribed by the Scriptures. But I don't know what you mean by 'subscribing to all the doctrines that are true' [?].

You seem to be saying that you have rejected the trinity because it is not scriptural. Do I take it, then, that you DO accept everything that IS scriptural?

Milton · 08-10-2003, 05:23 AM

Well, yes, I accept that something is true if it is evident.

Doctor X · 08-10-2003, 04:46 PM

That proves a "dodge," the question was not whether or not you believe something that is "evident" but whether you believe it because it is in scripture.

--J.D.

Milton · 08-10-2003, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Doctor X
That proves a "dodge," the question was not whether or not you believe something that is "evident" but whether you believe it because it is in scripture.

--J.D.

Um...doesn't it mean the same thing?

If its there, then it is evidently there. :banghead:

The only thing I tried to avoid was you trying to pull one of those that, though being part of Scripture, may not be practiced anymore.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

08-09-2003, 08:48 PM	#51
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Milton, if you don't believe in the Trinity, then you are a Unitarian Christian. There is a subgroup of the Unitarian Universalist denomination of Boston that is called the Association of U-U Christians, or something like that. The main denominational website is www.uua.org/ There are several subgroups of Unitarian Universalists. "Universalist" means believing in Universal Salvation. Both these concepts were started by Michael Servetus of Transylvania in the 1500s. He wrote indignant letters to John Calvin about this, whereupon Calvin invited him to Geneva for a debate and promptly barbecued him at the stake with green wood, so it would be slow and painful. The U-U Christians are at one end of the U-U spectrum, and at the other end is CUUPS (Covenant of U-U Pagans). Good luck in finding philosophical company.

08-09-2003, 09:31 PM	#53
Biff the unclean Banned Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: an inaccessible island fortress Posts: 10,638	Ah yes, Souperman, the Trinity. You couldn't throw a rock at first century Hellenism without hitting a Trinity. There were all sorts of them among the Pagan gods. My guess to which one the Christians borrowed would be the Dionysian Trinity because it consisted of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost. The father was Zeus, the son was Dionysos (whose name means "Born Again") and the Holy Ghost was Semele. Dionysos descended into Hades and brought Semele (his human mother) to heaven

08-09-2003, 09:33 PM	#54
Opera Nut Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,671	Mark Twain in Letters from the Earth, goes into God saying that "you shall have no other Gods before me". It doesn't say you can't have OTHER equal Gods and other subordinate Gods. Just trying to muddy the waters here............[[grin]]

08-10-2003, 05:23 AM	#58
Milton Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Atlanta,GA,USA Posts: 172	Well, yes, I accept that something is true if it is evident.

08-10-2003, 04:46 PM	#59
Doctor X Banned Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,794	That proves a "dodge," the question was not whether or not you believe something that is "evident" but whether you believe it because it is in scripture. --J.D.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.