Terminator

I find it rather humorous that on the one side you have the Christians who believe that God has been taken out of the schools. They want nothing more than to add more of God in whatever form (or way) they can to the school. On the other side you have the atheists (you guys) who seem to think that there is still too much God in the schools. Its a bit amusing. <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

Arrowman

The fundamental issue is freedom of religion, which is one aspect of freedom of thought. Granted, the two issues are very closely related but I don't think drawing the distinction is "missing the entire point of the Church state separation issue".

As I said in my first post, it is (to me) not surprising that people on this board have drawn that distinction and focused on the issue of freedom of religion because
1. they are separate issues, and the "Under God" issue is the one at hand;
2. it would be a mistake to allow the pro- "Under God" crowd to misrepresent CS separationists as anti-patriotism, which is what they will do every chance they get.

You may be right that most atheists (and indeed most liberal Christians who also support CS Separation) would also extend that support to freedom of thought, including being opposed to forced recitation of a Pledge of Allegiance, but they are still separate issues.

The importance of the "wall" is to allow all people to practice their religion without fear of or favour from the government. Your phrasing is superficially appealing but imho an accurate representation of the real "importance of" (or reason for) the "wall"; it is simply constructed to lead in to your next point.

I agree.

Well, actually, the only common issue that atheists have here is in fact that they "care about religious mind control". And yes, the only generalisation you can make about atheists as a group is indeed that they are "a-religious" (not "anti-religious").

Individual atheists may or may not agree with you on the issue of the Pledge itself being "fascist" - and we have seen some varying opinions expressed in this very thread. I don't think disagreeing with your opinion on the Pledge necessarily implies that one has "no principled ground to stand on".

My parents are conservative. My mother thinks that going to a church run school was a good thing for my cousin's child because "it's good for him to have a little religion in his life". Religion is, to her, A Good Thing. I don't know where they'd stand if they decided to make recitation of a Pledge compulsory in schools, but I suspect they would think it was A Good Thing. They also thought it was fortunate I missed the Viet Nam draft, and would have supported me if I had refused to go.

I don't mean to imply that "all conservatives are harmless"; I just think it is an over-generalisation to imply, as you have, that anyone who supported compulsory recitation of a Pledge of Allegiance must be some sort of oppressive book-burning fascist young earth creationist.

Arrowman

doubtingt, I'd like to take up another of your posts - I will reverse the order of your sentences for convenience and clarity.

&lt;quibble&gt;
As indeed do left wing regimes. Neither fascism nor socialism/communism can be implemented in a society with the use of repression. I find it curious that you single out "right-wing regimes".
&lt;/quibble&gt;

This is a valid point. But, in fairness, Americans don't stand en masse in front of a thirty-foot-high socialist realist portrait of POTUS shouting "God is Great!" and waving Kalshnikovs. I don't feel the same sense of disgust when I watch Americans standing for their national anthem at the start of the Superbowl, and I think it's reasonable for me to draw that distinction.

I agree.

I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands- one nation indivisible - with liberty and justice for all.

Apart from the points made earlier about the silliness of pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth - in what way does this recitation constitute "an authoritarian ritual to manipulate the beliefs and values of children"?

[ August 25, 2002: Message edited by: Arrowman ]</p>

galiel

You could always recite my alternate pledge, now making its rounds on the Net:

"I pledge allegiance to the Constitution of the United States of America and to the principles for which it stands: one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."