Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Deputy42 · 02-14-2002, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bonduca:


Of course, as an atheist, I do not believe I am descended from someone who was once a rib-bone.

I am, however, very interested in hearing what you feel woman's role in relation to man is in the modern world. That is, your view, in your own words. Would you care to elaborate?

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]

i think it is each person determines his/her own reality. again, equality is a good idea, it just leads to strange situations sometimes. i think these are due to misunderstandings and preconceived notions about what equality should mean as an end result. many of those who preach "equality" whether it be racial sexual or religious or political, have an agenda just like the evil church.

the problem with defining ultimate sexual roles again is because of the dirty influence of culture. a certain specified gender role in a given culture may seem discriminatory to an outside observer. however, that role as a mental construct, and not a living person, can only be described in terms of the surrounding culture.

what is my personal view? i think that will only come to me when i find love in another person. then the only male/female relation of any importance is to that person. of course this can be carried to the extreme: i love my family, what roles need to be played there. it can also be taken to the universal concept that if i love everyone, and they are all my extended family, then gender roles play an important role. what then? i think this goes back to each of us appying value to external things according to our personal experiences.

i will not disrespect you in that manner, so suffice to say "live and let live"

bonduca · 02-14-2002, 10:24 AM

With all due respect, this did not say anything of substance. As far as equality leading to "strange situations" I cannot imagine what you mean. Could you clarify this?

brighid · 02-14-2002, 10:27 AM

Defining my role in life will lead to happiness, not accepting a role someone else or society has forced upon simply decided on because of my gender.

Women and men are not the same, but we have the same potential intellectually and we should be treated in accordance to our HUMAN dignity. A woman should not be denied access to higher education simply because she is a woman. A woman should not be denied the right to vote because the female sex is “inferior” according to the JC theology. A woman should not be denied the right to inherit and own property. A woman should not be denied the right to adequate medical care. A woman should not be denied the right to divorce her husband because he has been established as her master and therefore she is his property. A woman should not suffer violence from the hands of her husband, boyfriend, lover or former intimate and she should not fear that law enforcement would fail to protect her. A woman should not be denied the ability to ascend to the highest-ranking positions in our government and in any other institution. A woman should have the right to choose her path in life and no have one imposed on her.
This is what equality is to a woman. We do not desire to be treated as if we are men and thereby removing our femininity but do demand that we are afford the same opportunities and denied nothing in favor of a man because by chance we were born with a different chromosome that dictates our genitalia and reproductive contribution to the species.

Women have been denied access to higher education, the right to vote, to own and inherit land, to adequate medical care (and still are), and they continue to suffer violence at the hands of an intimate in far greater numbers then any other crime in society. Women and children are killed every day in this country by husbands, boyfriends and former intimates. The police fail to protect us STILL. We are stalked, we are prayed upon, and killed without little attention given to our plight. We are raped and then further victimized by the system because deeply implanted in our collective psyches is that somehow woman is inferior because of original sin and therefore we are evil by design. We are harassed and ridiculed and we must work harder then our male counterparts for half of the recognition. We are penalized for being mothers and employees, yet men are not to the same degree a woman is. And the list goes on and on. You say your god manifested as a man and therefore god is solely male. That mindset has brought far too much pain and misery and if we look to the plight of the women in our global community that suffer at the hands of authoritarian theists with their foundation of thought in the same system it should be clear how destructive and DANGEROUS the ideas spurned by the exclusively male, superior god is.

Equality is not about being identical, but being respected in identical ways without prejudice and with objectivity. We should not be held back from achieving our full potential as human beings simply because we have a uterus. Thankfully, with the sacrifice and hard work of many men and women things have gotten better over the past few decades but there is still a long way to go. And as a woman I will not tolerated being relegated to the lower rungs of society because of the absurd notion that I am inferior because of my gender. Defining my role in life will lead to happiness, not accepting a role someone else or society has forced upon simply decided on because of my gender.

Women and men are not the same, but we have the same potential intellectually and we should be treated in accordance to our HUMAN dignity. A woman should not be denied access to higher education simply because she is a woman. A woman should not be denied the right to vote because the female sex is “inferior” according to the JC theology. A woman should not be denied the right to inherit and own property. A woman should not be denied the right to adequate medical care. A woman should not be denied the right to divorce her husband because he has been established as her master and therefore she is his property. A woman should not suffer violence from the hands of her husband, boyfriend, lover or former intimate and she should not fear that law enforcement would fail to protect her. A woman should not be denied the ability to ascend to the highest-ranking positions in our government and in any other institution. A woman should have the right to choose her path in life and no have one imposed on her.
This is what equality is to a woman. We do not desire to be treated as if we are men and thereby removing our femininity but do demand that we are afford the same opportunities and denied nothing in favor of a man because by chance we were born with a different chromosome that dictates our genitalia and reproductive contribution to the species.

Judge each man and woman by the fruits of his or her actions and be blind to their race, religion, lack of religion, creed, gender, political affiliation or sexual orientation. Until we remove the shackles of our prejudice we will be chained to the horrible past and fail to meet our ultimate potential in this, our human community.

I dare say that this is a superior moral position to that of Christianity or any other JC religion.

Brighid

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]

Mageth · 02-14-2002, 10:28 AM

I agree with bonduca. I didn't get a good idea of what your "reality" is from the post. Can you clarify?

Mageth · 02-14-2002, 10:32 AM

brighid said it all...twice!

Go girl!

bonduca · 02-14-2002, 10:33 AM

I have to say, it appears she is not your "equal" by any means. Strange situation?

(REALLY DO want to be brighid when I grow up!!!)

(edited 4 lysdexia)

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]

Deputy42 · 02-14-2002, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth:
I don't think anyone today would defend the position that man is the primary entity in reproduction.

You seemed to be in your earlier post. Your "consistency" seems to be very lacking.

d-if i was defending that view of gender, then it was only in order to explain an earlier point regarding st. paul and women not speaking in church.

d-its like this: there is truth, and then there is the truth fit to speak. in roman times, having little influence from jewish theology, women were subordinate. whether that is utlitmately morally correct or not is up for debate.

d-today we know that fossil fuels are harmful to the environment. yet we continue to use them voraciously. i've seen a million pages decrying the energy industries cover up of alternative fuel. the introduction of a car that runs on water in the 1980's while seeming totally positive, would have been disasterous. again sometimes the ears aren't ready for the message.

according to genesis, man came first, in the image of god, then came eve out of the rib of adam. patriarchal, but again that tradition has always been that way.

That's according to Genisis 2. Explain, then, Genesis 1:27:

d-yeah, ok, genesis 2 actually comes before that quote in genesis 1. it starts with "in the day that the lord god made the earth and the heavens when no plant of the field was yet in the earth.."
"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

d-god first created adam, then eve later from his rib. just like adam was created from the dust of the earth, eve was created out of adam's rib, with god doing the work.

d-i think it can best be understood like this: man and women were created in the image of god. and also man and women form one flesh. in the same way god the father and god the son form one god, yet serve different functions.....

Also note that something being a "tradition" does not make it right.

d-i agree with you on this point.

Your flipflopping on the issues of male/female roles is common among theists I've been around.

d-flip flop? explain
From your comments to QoS:

the more "christian" one becomes, the more one becomes like those who wrote the bible and the more he/she will relate to the teachings.

Right, you'll support the supression of women, slavery, slaughter of innocent women and children, etc. Thank the IPU I escaped that worldview - I have no desire to "relate" to such crap.

[ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

is society today better than before? has the total sum of goodness in man gained since the times of the bible? i think you are looking in microcosm. if you relate to the teachings of this culture alone, i think you might become more like this culture. i think continuing down this road will lead to the same moral rot that destroyed the romans.

Corwin · 02-14-2002, 10:53 AM

Are we better? Let's see.... taking all of the technological and scientific advances and putting them to the side for the moment...

We've banned slavery, we've (largely) stopped keeping our women on a leash, (at least permanently, as a result of insecurity. As an occasional game goes I don't have a problem with a little consentual leashing...

) we don't beat people to death with rocks for what they say, what they believe, or who they have sex with, or who they talk back to... we threw out the leaders who seem to think they should wield supreme executive power, and we've adopted a world view that demands proof over speculation, which has led to the technological and scientific changes I mentioned earlier.... new sources of energy, medicines that help us live longer and healthier, and that don't involve fatally injuring someone to let out nonexistant 'demons,' buildings that would dwarf your mythical tower of Babel, the ability to travel the world more or less at will, and quickly.... and more potent creations to come. (Nanotechnology, quantum computing, artificial intelligence, genetic therapy... the list goes on.)

Is that enough 'improvement' for you?

bonduca · 02-14-2002, 10:58 AM

I can hold a job, own property and vote. If someone rapes me, I can prosecute, as opposed to him being made to marry me. I have access to antibiotics, contraception, and education.

Works for me.

You still have not clarified your post in relation to my earlier question.

??

Mageth · 02-14-2002, 11:02 AM

I'm not going to reply to most of your babble, because I don't think I've gotten a grasp on what you actually believe from what you've posted so far.

its like this: there is truth, and then there is the truth fit to speak.

??? If something is "true", why would it not be fit to speak?

in roman times, having little influence from jewish theology, women were subordinate.

IIRC, Roman society was less patriarchal than Jewish society. Lots of powerful women, female deities, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong.

whether that is utlitmately morally correct or not is up for debate.

Back to an earlier request: please clarify what you actually believe gender roles are, i.e. whether you think brighid's comments are "morally correct." Try to keep it brief and to the point.

Also: a car that runs on water? No such animal. Sounds like an urban legend to me.

02-14-2002, 10:27 AM	#53
brighid Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: somewhere in the known Universe Posts: 6,993	Defining my role in life will lead to happiness, not accepting a role someone else or society has forced upon simply decided on because of my gender. Women and men are not the same, but we have the same potential intellectually and we should be treated in accordance to our HUMAN dignity. A woman should not be denied access to higher education simply because she is a woman. A woman should not be denied the right to vote because the female sex is “inferior” according to the JC theology. A woman should not be denied the right to inherit and own property. A woman should not be denied the right to adequate medical care. A woman should not be denied the right to divorce her husband because he has been established as her master and therefore she is his property. A woman should not suffer violence from the hands of her husband, boyfriend, lover or former intimate and she should not fear that law enforcement would fail to protect her. A woman should not be denied the ability to ascend to the highest-ranking positions in our government and in any other institution. A woman should have the right to choose her path in life and no have one imposed on her. This is what equality is to a woman. We do not desire to be treated as if we are men and thereby removing our femininity but do demand that we are afford the same opportunities and denied nothing in favor of a man because by chance we were born with a different chromosome that dictates our genitalia and reproductive contribution to the species. Women have been denied access to higher education, the right to vote, to own and inherit land, to adequate medical care (and still are), and they continue to suffer violence at the hands of an intimate in far greater numbers then any other crime in society. Women and children are killed every day in this country by husbands, boyfriends and former intimates. The police fail to protect us STILL. We are stalked, we are prayed upon, and killed without little attention given to our plight. We are raped and then further victimized by the system because deeply implanted in our collective psyches is that somehow woman is inferior because of original sin and therefore we are evil by design. We are harassed and ridiculed and we must work harder then our male counterparts for half of the recognition. We are penalized for being mothers and employees, yet men are not to the same degree a woman is. And the list goes on and on. You say your god manifested as a man and therefore god is solely male. That mindset has brought far too much pain and misery and if we look to the plight of the women in our global community that suffer at the hands of authoritarian theists with their foundation of thought in the same system it should be clear how destructive and DANGEROUS the ideas spurned by the exclusively male, superior god is. Equality is not about being identical, but being respected in identical ways without prejudice and with objectivity. We should not be held back from achieving our full potential as human beings simply because we have a uterus. Thankfully, with the sacrifice and hard work of many men and women things have gotten better over the past few decades but there is still a long way to go. And as a woman I will not tolerated being relegated to the lower rungs of society because of the absurd notion that I am inferior because of my gender. Defining my role in life will lead to happiness, not accepting a role someone else or society has forced upon simply decided on because of my gender. Women and men are not the same, but we have the same potential intellectually and we should be treated in accordance to our HUMAN dignity. A woman should not be denied access to higher education simply because she is a woman. A woman should not be denied the right to vote because the female sex is “inferior” according to the JC theology. A woman should not be denied the right to inherit and own property. A woman should not be denied the right to adequate medical care. A woman should not be denied the right to divorce her husband because he has been established as her master and therefore she is his property. A woman should not suffer violence from the hands of her husband, boyfriend, lover or former intimate and she should not fear that law enforcement would fail to protect her. A woman should not be denied the ability to ascend to the highest-ranking positions in our government and in any other institution. A woman should have the right to choose her path in life and no have one imposed on her. This is what equality is to a woman. We do not desire to be treated as if we are men and thereby removing our femininity but do demand that we are afford the same opportunities and denied nothing in favor of a man because by chance we were born with a different chromosome that dictates our genitalia and reproductive contribution to the species. Judge each man and woman by the fruits of his or her actions and be blind to their race, religion, lack of religion, creed, gender, political affiliation or sexual orientation. Until we remove the shackles of our prejudice we will be chained to the horrible past and fail to meet our ultimate potential in this, our human community. I dare say that this is a superior moral position to that of Christianity or any other JC religion. Brighid [ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: brighid ]</p>

02-14-2002, 10:33 AM	#56
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	I have to say, it appears she is not your "equal" by any means. Strange situation? (REALLY DO want to be brighid when I grow up!!!) (edited 4 lysdexia) [ February 14, 2002: Message edited by: bonduca ]</p>

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02-14-2002, 10:24 AM	#52
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	With all due respect, this did not say anything of substance. As far as equality leading to "strange situations" I cannot imagine what you mean. Could you clarify this?

02-14-2002, 10:28 AM	#54
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I agree with bonduca. I didn't get a good idea of what your "reality" is from the post. Can you clarify?

02-14-2002, 10:32 AM	#55
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	brighid said it all...twice! Go girl!

02-14-2002, 10:53 AM	#58
Corwin Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 4,369	Are we better? Let's see.... taking all of the technological and scientific advances and putting them to the side for the moment... We've banned slavery, we've (largely) stopped keeping our women on a leash, (at least permanently, as a result of insecurity. As an occasional game goes I don't have a problem with a little consentual leashing... ) we don't beat people to death with rocks for what they say, what they believe, or who they have sex with, or who they talk back to... we threw out the leaders who seem to think they should wield supreme executive power, and we've adopted a world view that demands proof over speculation, which has led to the technological and scientific changes I mentioned earlier.... new sources of energy, medicines that help us live longer and healthier, and that don't involve fatally injuring someone to let out nonexistant 'demons,' buildings that would dwarf your mythical tower of Babel, the ability to travel the world more or less at will, and quickly.... and more potent creations to come. (Nanotechnology, quantum computing, artificial intelligence, genetic therapy... the list goes on.) Is that enough 'improvement' for you?

02-14-2002, 10:58 AM	#59
bonduca Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: . Posts: 1,653	I can hold a job, own property and vote. If someone rapes me, I can prosecute, as opposed to him being made to marry me. I have access to antibiotics, contraception, and education. Works for me. You still have not clarified your post in relation to my earlier question. ??

02-14-2002, 11:02 AM	#60
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	I'm not going to reply to most of your babble, because I don't think I've gotten a grasp on what you actually believe from what you've posted so far. its like this: there is truth, and then there is the truth fit to speak. ??? If something is "true", why would it not be fit to speak? in roman times, having little influence from jewish theology, women were subordinate. IIRC, Roman society was less patriarchal than Jewish society. Lots of powerful women, female deities, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong. whether that is utlitmately morally correct or not is up for debate. Back to an earlier request: please clarify what you actually believe gender roles are, i.e. whether you think brighid's comments are "morally correct." Try to keep it brief and to the point. Also: a car that runs on water? No such animal. Sounds like an urban legend to me.

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