Freethought & Rationalism Archive

99Percent · 03-24-2002, 03:53 PM

I stumbled a while back on this "proof" for the existence of God. What would be its fallacy?

Quote:

by Jorge Luis Borges

taken from In The Maker, 1960

I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second, or perhaps less; I am not sure how many birds I saw. Was the number of birds definite or indefinite? The problem involves the existence of God. If God exists, the number is definite, because God knows how many birds I saw. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because no one can have counted. In this case I saw fewer than ten birds (let us say) and more than one, but did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, which was not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. That integer - not-nine, not-eight, not-seven, not-six, not-five, etc. - is inconceivable. Ergo, God exists.

Secular Elation · 03-24-2002, 04:10 PM

I'm an amateur, but this is what I have to say...

I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second, or perhaps less; I am not sure how many birds I saw. Was the number of birds definite or indefinite? The problem involves the existence of God.

First off, what relevance does the vision have to a god's existence?

If God exists, the number is definite, because God knows how many birds I saw. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because no one can have counted.

Ah, but if we could have counted, we would be able to disspell that idea.

In this case I saw fewer than ten birds (let us say) and more than one, but did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, which was not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc.

So? You were still able to determine how many birds there were, roughly, between 1 and 10. There's no such thing as a 1.9 bird, so this problem involves whole numbers. The number isn't indefinite.

Pantera · 03-24-2002, 04:28 PM

If he's not sure how many birds he saw, how does he know it wasn't nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds?

tronvillain · 03-24-2002, 05:03 PM

What a terrible argument: The number of birds appears to be definite or indefinite regardless of whether or not God exists.

1)If it is definite and God exists, then God knows the number.

2)If it is definite and God does not exist, then the number is knowable in principle, even if it is not known by anyone.

3)If it is indefinite and God exists, then God does not know the number, but instead knows that there is no number.

4)If it is indefinite and God does not exist, then the number is not knowable in principle, even if this is not known by anyone.

A couple of possibilities:

1)Borges saw an integer number of birds, but does not remember the number, in which case the number is knowable and case one or two holds.

2)Borges saw an indefinite number of birds, and remembers seeing an indefinite number of birds, in which case the number is unknowable and case three or four holds.

This is not a proof of God at all.

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ]

[ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ]</p>

tronvillain · 03-24-2002, 05:07 PM

Oh, and the number of birds being indefinite does seem to be a real possibility - the pattern of neural activity could turn out to correspond to "some birds" rather than any specific number of birds.

DamagedGoods · 03-24-2002, 05:34 PM

I can't figure out how Mr. Borges' vision is a proof of anything (except that maybe he needs to lay off the puff-a-luffin' stuff.

)

Grumpy · 03-24-2002, 05:36 PM

Methinks Borges is screwing with your mind. <a href="http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/library_of_babel.html" target="_blank">Again.</a>

tronvillain · 03-24-2002, 06:06 PM

Ah yes, the Library of Babel. There are [x(1321000)]^25 books in the library, where x is the number of possible characters on the spine. The description of the library given is extremely unrealistic though.

lpetrich · 03-24-2002, 10:06 PM

The kind of "God" that that argument would demonstrate is something like Bishop Berkeley's God, who keeps the Universe going by continually perceiving it.

DamagedGoods · 03-25-2002, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by lpetrich:
<strong>The kind of "God" that that argument would demonstrate is something like Bishop Berkeley's God, who keeps the Universe going by continually perceiving it.</strong>

So He goes about collapsing wave functions all over the universe and otherwise interfering with Schr�dinger's Cat and Kitten experiments?

I wondered who kept the universe in existence when I was asleep.

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03-24-2002, 04:10 PM	#2
Secular Elation Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: California Posts: 6,196	I'm an amateur, but this is what I have to say... I close my eyes and see a flock of birds. The vision lasts a second, or perhaps less; I am not sure how many birds I saw. Was the number of birds definite or indefinite? The problem involves the existence of God. First off, what relevance does the vision have to a god's existence? If God exists, the number is definite, because God knows how many birds I saw. If God does not exist, the number is indefinite, because no one can have counted. Ah, but if we could have counted, we would be able to disspell that idea. In this case I saw fewer than ten birds (let us say) and more than one, but did not see nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds. I saw a number between ten and one, which was not nine, eight, seven, six, five, etc. So? You were still able to determine how many birds there were, roughly, between 1 and 10. There's no such thing as a 1.9 bird, so this problem involves whole numbers. The number isn't indefinite.

03-24-2002, 04:28 PM	#3
Pantera Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Cambridge, England, but a Scot at heart Posts: 2,431	If he's not sure how many birds he saw, how does he know it wasn't nine, eight, seven, six, five, four, three, or two birds?

03-24-2002, 05:03 PM	#4
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	What a terrible argument: The number of birds appears to be definite or indefinite regardless of whether or not God exists. 1)If it is definite and God exists, then God knows the number. 2)If it is definite and God does not exist, then the number is knowable in principle, even if it is not known by anyone. 3)If it is indefinite and God exists, then God does not know the number, but instead knows that there is no number. 4)If it is indefinite and God does not exist, then the number is not knowable in principle, even if this is not known by anyone. A couple of possibilities: 1)Borges saw an integer number of birds, but does not remember the number, in which case the number is knowable and case one or two holds. 2)Borges saw an indefinite number of birds, and remembers seeing an indefinite number of birds, in which case the number is unknowable and case three or four holds. This is not a proof of God at all. [ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ] [ March 24, 2002: Message edited by: tronvillain ]</p>

03-24-2002, 05:07 PM	#5
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Oh, and the number of birds being indefinite does seem to be a real possibility - the pattern of neural activity could turn out to correspond to "some birds" rather than any specific number of birds.

03-24-2002, 05:34 PM	#6
DamagedGoods Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Norfolk, VA, USA Posts: 219	I can't figure out how Mr. Borges' vision is a proof of anything (except that maybe he needs to lay off the puff-a-luffin' stuff. )

03-24-2002, 05:36 PM	#7
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	Methinks Borges is screwing with your mind. <a href="http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/library_of_babel.html" target="_blank">Again.</a>

03-24-2002, 06:06 PM	#8
tronvillain Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Alberta, Canada Posts: 5,658	Ah yes, the Library of Babel. There are [x(1321000)]^25 books in the library, where x is the number of possible characters on the spine. The description of the library given is extremely unrealistic though.

03-24-2002, 10:06 PM	#9
lpetrich Contributor Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Lebanon, OR, USA Posts: 16,829	The kind of "God" that that argument would demonstrate is something like Bishop Berkeley's God, who keeps the Universe going by continually perceiving it.

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