rainbow walking

rw: Wrong answer. There are two paths but only one leads to truth. We can either think in order to choose what to believe or we can believe without thinking which leaves nothing to think about.

rw: Nothing could be further from the truth. As we shall see below all of your examples are natural events that can be verified, falsified and evidentially substantiated. Many of our choices to believe were made long before they were tested for truth value. In the examples given below you made the choice to believe the media and the historical record about specific past events long before you wrote this response. Were you actually present to eyewitness any of these events? Yet, because of past choices about methods of communicating information you accepted these events as true. You made a choice by proxy.

rw: There is a fundamental difference between natural and spiritual claims. One can be verified and relegated to a body of justified knowledge. The other cannot and must be accepted on faith.

rw: Yes, you could do this. Of course your claims would have to be supported by more than just your beliefs to get past professional historians. But you can't believe your way out of something you know to be true unless there is some doubt instilled that allows the belief to penetrate. I could present you with what appeared to be valid evidence that American history had been distorted and could conceivably convince you to believe me. But, ultimately, the choice of whether to believe or not would be yours. You seem to be saying that all things are self evident and no choice is necessary in any matter set before you requiring belief.

HelenM

I've seen this argued before by non-theists "I don't have a choice to believe" and I think what they generally mean is "I can't make myself believe".

Which means God didn't really give them a choice because from their point of view it's not possible to believe in God.

So therefore it's not their fault they don't believe and it's not fair to send them to hell for not believing.

I think that's what the "I don't have a choice" argument really signifies.

The implication is - if the evidence is good enough, I will believe because it will convince me and if there isn't good evidence, I won't believe anyway.

rw can you counter that, if you think believing is a choice?

Do you personally feel that you made a 'choice' not to believe; or did it just happen one day that you found yourself no longer convinced and from that day you begin to re-label those things in your life that you used to associate with God's reality and presence...? What do you think?

love
Helen

brighid

Talon,

Yes, skanky sluts like you, not virginal boys - well, maybe one or two that could be schooled ...

Brighid

rainbow walking

Helen: I've seen this argued before by non-theists "I don't have a choice to believe" and I think what they generally mean is "I can't make myself believe".

Rw: I agree Helen, I think that’s the message intended. However, it doesn’t entirely resolve the issue because the question remains whether “not believing” is a reciprocal choice or the default position when one rejects the option of believing, or both. Everyone here seems to agree that there are people who haven’t made a definitive choice and are likely lurking about considering the arguments for and against, so there seems to be a general consensus that a choice isn’t immanently necessary. The conscious decision not to choose one way or the other also comes into play when the question of religious belief arises.

I think choices are motivated by one of three, or a combination thereof, stimuli: Intellectual, emotional or situational. Sometimes circumstances can force us to make choices we otherwise would have preferred not to make. Sometimes we are fortunate enough to be able to examine all the options and make the choice we believe to be the most intelligent selection. And sometimes we base our choices on sentiment making them a reaction from/to something in our previous experience.

The statement, “I can’t make myself believe” is a true statement and must be examined,(especially in relation to religious views), from one of two, and from both, sides of the coin. There are those who once believed and, for various reasons, no longer find themselves able to do so, and there are those who have never believed and are content to remain faithful to that decision. Each of these sides of the issue have some unique qualities worth examining.

But first we must ask ourselves, “Is our position arrived at via decision or mechanical reaction. In other words, is it actually a willful choice or is there some stimuli beyond our will forcing us to take the stance we claim as our position with a compulsion we cannot willfully over-ride?
At this juncture it is important to note that most choices we make today are DETERMINED by choices we made at some previous point of our lives. The person who can’t bring themselves to believe the Christian message at face value likely made a previous decision to “believe it when I see it.”

It is also important to mention that the Christian message is about an EXPERIENCE rather than an intellectual acquiescence and largely appeals to our human desire for new and different experiences that we adjudge will benefit us on a personal level. It is, after all, a message promising the experience of personal salvation. It holds an especially attractive appeal to people who’ve previously had bad experiences that have created a personal identity crisis in their lives.

But humans are creatures who eventually get around to assigning values to their experiences. They do so by organizing and codifying them into a systematic metaphorical group of semantics that enable them to communicate their experiences and the value of them. That’s when the intellect kicks in and the experiences, as well as the means and methods of communication, come into critical review. It is precisely at this point that past choices also come under review, especially when the experience, as conveyed, is challenged as to it’s veracity in relation to truth and compared with other similar experiences that were organized into a different set of metaphors and conveyed a different justification.

The “church” has long recognized the inherent danger in this process and has established measures to safeguard the essential “truths” upon which it’s alleged experiences are founded. Measures like “what fellowship hath light with darkness”. Seclusionary tactics designed to protect its interests. But humans will be humans.

When a person says, “I can’t force myself to believe” they are speaking the truth. No one can force a decision to over-ride a previous decision unless that previous decision is addressed. And it works both ways with equal force. Just like you can’t get like poles of a magnet to attract each other you can’t force yourself to pretend a previous decision isn’t viable once you’ve made the choice. You will defend that choice against all odds until something or another produces a crack in the reasons you made that choice.
Theism and atheism, regardless of what anyone believes, are choices. They may be reactionary or mechanical choices based on previous choices but they are choices nonetheless.

Now I’m going to address the un-decided lurker. The person who sincerely isn’t sure what to believe. To such a person I would ask, “why does it matter to you? What has brought you to a point where the decision has become a factor in your life? What do you want? What do you need?”
If you are the person caught up in an identity crisis due to un-pleasant life shattering experiences Christianity is an option for you. If you aren’t sure who you are anymore and where you fit into the grand scheme of things the message of Christ is simple and clear, Matthew 11:28 “Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”

You see, the only proper and viable place for Christianity in today’s world is to provide a cocoon for you. If you are such a person, embrace Christianity; do it with your whole heart, mind, soul, and body. Find a church of genuine believers and wrap it around you and receive your healing; find your balance and regain your sense of purpose for this life. Wallow in it, embed yourself within it, do everything you can to become one with its proponents, harbor no doubts and don’t look back. This is the only proper way you’ll derive any benefit from it and find your healing and the peace you so crave in your life.

But I caution you to approach it honestly. It must be what you absolutely NEED, not just something you think you WANT or as a curiosity or because you see some material gain to be had. If you aren’t sick, stay away.
Luke 5:31 And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are whole need not a physician; but they that are sick.

If yours is only an intellectual pursuit you need no physician. Heal thyself. Christianity is a spiritual hospice whose only proper and righteous role for mankind is to provide a safe haven for the weak and the weary, the person who’s LOST their way and clueless as to who they are. I was just such a person and I wrapped the cocoon of Christianity around me for many years. You’d be surprised at the number of people in this crisis.
Perhaps your crisis began when you came face to face with your own mortality. Christianity has the answer in the after-life. Perhaps your crisis crept up on you slowly in a culmination of immoral decisions that have brought you to the end of your ways. Christianity has the solution in a body of behavioral doctrines and principles which, when properly adhered to, will guide you away from the precipice of self-destruction. Perhaps your crisis began out of sheer loneliness. Christianity provides you with a personal comforter in the Holy Spirit and the fellowship of the church.

While, by no means exhaustive, these represent the most general conditions in which the human spirit can become drained, divested of hope and direction, leaving you tottering on the brink of self destruction. Perhaps you’ve already begun the descent? Drinking or drugging or via some other self-destructive behavior to hasten your journey to the bottom of the pit? Christianity can be your lifeline.

Once you’re in, receive your healing. Get so actively enmeshed in its day to day operations that you have little time or patience with anything else. At some point you will find that you have regained your balance; that you now have hope and a sense of purpose that will bring with it an un-shakable peace. At this point you will find yourself at another crossroad. You can remain within the safety and protection of its confines as a minister helping and guiding others to their healing. If this is the case to you I say, “To God be the glory”. Or you will begin to experience growing pains of another kind. The cocoon will no longer feel so safe as constraining. At some point you must break free and pursue your dreams and aspirations. In this case I will say, “To God be the glory”.

A word of caution to all who would tread this path: The cocoon can also become a place of death and stagnation of the soul. If you haven’t a clear understanding of its purpose and design and remain as a minister you will begin to exact payment for your services that isn’t required or necessary. You will become a jailer and a tax collector rather than a physician. It is you who will perish. If you are one of those who must press on and, out of fear or anxiety, refuse to confront your growing dissatisfactions with the cocoon and remain longer than you should, you will find that a new disease is creeping upon your soul. It will wrap itself around you like a poison Ivy vine binding you to the walls of the temple until you become this empty, embittered, legalistic monolithic bird of prey pecking at the eyes and hearts of anyone who passes within reach. Once you’ve realized your healing take up your bed and walk. Bust a move. Make way for others who have need of that bed.

I am one who has chewed his way out of the cocoon. I am an atheist. Not because I don’t believe in a God or gods, but because I have no need to consider it a pertinent question to my existence. But I am a minister to all who are seeking to move on. As are all other atheists whether they realize it or not. My place is not to judge or condemn but to show you the way out. If you’ve been here defending your cocoon chances are you’re only kicking against the pricks. You are looking for that one argument that will allow you to sprout wing and fly away into your future in full control and presence of mind as a more thoroughly matured human being.

Being an atheist in a theistic world needn’t be defined as an “us or them” conflict. We are all one species sharing the same rock. An atheist who’s defined his position as an intellectual one is not a true atheist. He’s as much a victim of his past identity crisis as the theist. A genuine atheist isn’t defined by his lack of belief but by his shifted emphasis of belief. He has reached that point in his spiritual maturity where he has no need of belief in anything other than himself and, to a lesser degree, in his fellow sojourners in this life. He has no need of the physician.
A genuine atheist doesn’t look down on the believer or condemn him or pigeon hole him as ignorant or blind or as the enemy. He sees him as a person who is where he is because that is where he wants to be and he respects that persons wishes. The only true role of an atheist in regard to the theist is to provide tools for the believer who wishes to move on, to dig his way out of the cocoon.

A word of caution to the Christian minister regarding children: Jesus said, “suffer the little children to come unto me.” Meaning don’t hinder and don’t force a child into the cocoon. Unless he’s been abused, he is in no need of a physician. Forcing him to take remedies he doesn’t need will produce a radical atheist whose anti-theism will only frighten away those genuinely seeking a release from their cocoon.

If, as a Christian minister, you are confronted with a believer seeking release from the cocoon, give God the glory. Don’t ridicule or condemn or ostracize him for his choice. Remember the words of Christ spoken to His disciples who wanted to call fire down out of heaven against the village of people who rejected Jesus, “Luke 9:55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.”

Is believing a choice? It is, but one not to be taken lightly.

rw: With man all things are possible.

rw: This is true and the reason I put this question to the test.

rw: Rather than counter it I hope I have said something to clarify the origin and nature of the question.

rw: I made the choice in my soul, (subconsciously), long before I began to argue the validity of my previous choice to become a Christian. My two year journey to fish that choice from those depths and enact it are just another part of my journey. Whether I associate my presence in reality with God or not the fact remains I am here and ultimately responsible for where I go from here. I go by choice as surely as I got here by choice. Sometimes it takes a lifetime for a choice to become clear. Once it does every human being can do nought but make it and press on.

Schmecky

I agree with Synaesthesia that the problem here is that you have to start with the conclusion that God exists.

For example, what if I said, "The best thing you can do is to seek Satan." Or, "The best thing you can do is to try to extinguish your emotions so that you might break the cycle of reincarnation and reach Nirvana."

If I seriously proposed either of these things to you, how could you refute me? Logically, neither of those statements are different then what you're suggesting we do. They start with the conclusion and ask you to try to convince yourself of it.

That's why I would say, the best we can do is to honestly seek truth anywhere, and always be ready to question our beliefs because we may have overlooked some serious flaw. If an argument still sounds valid after being vigorously tested, that's much better than if we take the, "question not, lest ye doubt," position.

HelenM

Hi rw

Wow...

That was awesome sharing!

I commend you for being able to look at a system you have left and say "even so, it might be a place of healing for others".

I think that takes a lot of maturity.

I need to think about how to respond but what you said to me makes sense and I appreciate the fuller explanation because I understand much better where you are at, now.

I think most people I've seen here, who state openly that they are atheists, are definite about their believe that God does not exist. It interests me that you evidently are not taking a position, at present, on that. whilst nevertheless strongly stating your objections to the God of Christianity...but correct me if I'm wrong.

I hope that the truth will set you free

And thank you so much for bothering to write out such a careful detailed response!

love
Helen

St. Robert

Jesus said that it's actually a person's lack of faith in Him that condemns them (John 3:18). God doesn't comdemn people. People condemn themselves. In other words, the only people that don't go to heaven are the ones who simply choose not to go.

God did not send Jesus to get man into heaven. He sent Jesus to get heaven into man.

David Gould

And it didn't work too well, did it?

Pretty poor showing for an omnipotent and omniscient God...

5 billion plus people alive today who he failed to get heaven into.

16% is a fail in anyone's books.

Typhon

Uh…yes.
I say that's nothing but shinola. And the point is, IF against all odds and reason, a god or god like thing happened to exist, AND cared one whit about what stance local lifeforms in these parts happened to have invented about its motivations, intent, desires, etc., it would be even more UNLIKELY to be impressed/happy/whatever with the stupidity it takes to swallow such obvious nonsense as belief in a literal, Biblical, Christian god. Far better to have used your brains and been honest in your thoughts and exploration of the universe.
Really? So salvation depends on the state of one's major cardiovascular organ? Amazing, guess we should all try to die young then.
No the best thing you can do is to simply seek the truth, it is unfortunate for you, that gods do not appear to part of that. "Seeking god" has to be one of the weakest, most intellectually empty platitudes ever invented. You're so much better off spending your time seeking friendship with your fellow humans, seeking affordable healthcare for all citizens, seeking an end to corporate hegemony, seeking world peace, seeking a nice cup of tea with one of those scones with little raisins in them. Hell, you'd be better off seeking a pair of clean socks that might have fallen under your bed a few days ago after you did your laundry than wasting your precious time and effort seeking some figment of human imagination to slavishly and foolishly worship.

.T.

Echo

This is absurd and tells me that you have probably never spent more than a total of five minutes engaging in conversation with members of other faiths.

What if a Muslim tells me that he chooses to go to Heaven and that he professes those beliefs and engages in those actions that he thinks are consistent with that goal? If Christianity turns out to be correct and the Muslim goes to Hell based on his rejection of certain Christian doctrines, does it make sense to say he chose not to go to Heaven?

It seems more reasonable to say that he chose to go to Heaven but was simply mistaken about the requirements for getting there.

Saying he chose not to go to Heaven is simply another piss poor attempt by Christians to rationalize their insidious hell beliefs.