T. E. Lords

This discussion isn't much different than the rhetorical question "if a tree falls in the woods and no one is there to hear it does it make a sound."

To me the simple answer to this question is this: We know that when we hear sound it is caused by sound waves traveling through the air and our ears pick up these waves, vibrate our ear drums and send neuro-chemical messages to the part of our brain that interprets sound for us. You could fell an entire forest and every time a tree fell it would make a noise. So it is reasonable to assume that sound waves would be generated even if no one was there to perceive them. Can we know for sure? No, because we can't be there to witness the affect of us not being there. But it is a reasonable assumption. It is also unreasonable to assume that our presence in the forest has any affect on sound wave generation.

Keith Russell

The fact is, you understood enough about human biology to know that his grandfather, or great-grandfather, might have lived long enough ago that the birth certificate might have become mislaid.

We know how human propagation works, and thus it would be impossible for a person not to have had a grandfather--whether the great-grandson is able to produce the birth certficate, or not.

We don't have nearly as much information (and of course, no evidence at all, hence the cries for 'faith') about 'God', birth certificates notwithstanding.

Keith.

T. E. Lords

Great Keith's think alike.

Keith Brandwood Kofoed.

NonHomogenized

I know I say it a lot, but it's because many people don't seem to get it; ordinary claims require ordinary evidence, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

If someone makes the claim that they have a great-grandfather, one can follow the following reasoning:
1) I had a great-grandfather.
2) Unless they were genetically engineered, or an asexual species (or their parents, or granparents were), every living being had a great grandfather, by logical necessity.
3) Humans are not known to reproduce asexually.
4) Humans are not known to be genetically engineered.
5) Therefore, it is likely that this person, like every other human, had a great-grandfather.

Essentially, since it is something which is known to be extremely common, it may be accepted, for lack of other information.

Another example: I'm working at a hotel, and a guest walks in, and mentions that it is raining. I know that "raining" is something that is far from uncommon; it is a perfectly ordinary event, and I have no reason to doubt them, so I may presume it to be true.
However, if the hotel doesn't have an overhang, they are dry, and they don't have an umbrella or something similar, then their word on that may be suspect.

In spite of the beliefs of some theists, it is not objectively known that there are such things as 'gods', nor is it known that creating and controlling universes is something that they do, or anything else about them. Therefore, any claim involving them, is extraordinary, and requires extraordinary evidence. If someone tells me that Jesus just floated down from the sky, and is judging the quick and the dead, I'm damn well going to assume that they are insane or on drugs, or both, unless and until I see it myself, and have confirmation that a) it is indeed Jesus I'm seeing, b) he does seem to be raising the dead, and c) he is doing something which seems to be judging people. Furthermore, I am going to want confirmation from others, and, preferably, satillite (or video) footage, so that I know it is not a trick or mass hallucination/delusion. I would require this kind of evidence because:
1) I have never seen "Jesus"
2) I have never seen any person float down from the sky unassisted.
3) I have no reason to believe that this is something which is even possible.
4) To the best of human knowledge, it is impossible to return someone to life, who has been dead more than a few minutes (I think 30 is the cutoff?), much less someone who has decomposed nearly completely.
etc etc etc.
This all leads to the inescapable that this is an extraordinary event, and, as such, requires extraordinary evidence to convince me that it is genuine.

SRB

Let's be clear. Is it your position that there is as much evidence that a typical person's grandfather exists as there is evidence that that there exists a disembodied, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent person who created the universe and rules over it?

That's ridiculous! There is, quite obviously, a vast amount of evidence in the grandafther case that is missing in the God case. This should be apparent to anyone who thinks about it for three seconds.

SRB

Jobar

Albert's post, and the replies to it, seem to me to be wandering off the topic a bit; a fascinating conversation in its own right seems to be starting though, so what I intend to do is to move the last several posts into a thread called 'Existence and Experience'.

And I will be arguing- partially and conditionally, at least- on Albert's side. I too think that we cannot speak of existence without experience, and it *may* be correct to say that one is impossible without the other.

Please take any further comments to that thread, and continue here only with the title topic, OK?

id.s

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Darth Dane
[B]If Love is chemicals that are out of our controls, where is our thoughts? Where do they come from? Does our thoughts come from our brain(physical)? If it comes from our physical brain, it seems we are robots, because we are only thinking, feeling, talking, acting as our brain dictates, this takes effectively care of mrality, because the idea of morality is also a construct of a mind that is bound by physical phenomena.

Where do our thoughts come from?

I saw your question and suggest you get a book by Victor Frankl called "Mans search for meaning". He was in a concentration camp for years, expecting to die at any moment,watching thousands die around him, expecting the same at any second. He said-- Remember,everything can be taken away from you except your own choice of how you react to what's happening. How you respond is "YOU". Bad and arbitrary things happen all the time. It may not be a fixable or changeable aspect of the world. We prove this by the way we live and the way we think, talk and act. The meaning you get from an experience is the meaning you bring to it. If meaning doesn't derive its' "meaning" at least in part from us then IT can't be meaningful TO us. I hope that helps you understand where your thoughts come from. Now go to a website that has an explanation of the tests used in critical thinking and apply that to your thoughts. This may help you to steer a course of logic and reason with your thinking. Good luck- I noticed no one had an answer for you so......
The IDs.

Albert Cipriani

IDS said: :notworthy
That is profound. Well said. My hat is off to you, sir. -- Albert the Traditional Catholic

diana

What makes you think id.s is a "sir"?

d

Albert Cipriani

IDS must be a sir, because only men can demonstrate such reasoning powers, m'am.

Which leads me to anticipate the retort by C.S. Lewis's wife in the film, "Shadowlands," leveled at a priggish professor: -- Cheers, Albert