Corwin

Let's not throw up strawmen here.

I'll admit that restrictions on our freedoms in America are currently, while odious... fairly limited. It's the TREND we're worried about. We're worried that this will turn into a police state and nobody except us seems interested in doing a damned thing to stop it. Hell some people are even welcoming the idea.

randomsyllable

Bah - If they come from ND/MN they can cope well enough. Besides, you think I want to share the wealth of talent that an exodus might entail? ;p (NB: I don't live their any more, but I gotta think about the family)

Primordial Groove

Here is an idea.

Lets all pick a country (preferably mild climate) and move there. If most scientists, freethinkers, and reasonable people came, imagine what we could do. And imagine how the US which is admittedly full of morons would suffer.

Ahhh, what a pipe dream.

Anyway, I won't leave unless stem cell research becomes illegal or CSS is abandoned. At that point, see ya.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Primordial Groove ]</p>

tdekeyser

This is a GREAT idea! We would very quickly become the super-power of the world. We would have a nation of Thinkers, Scientist, Doctors, Professors, Engineers, Computer people (me) and Astronomers.

I would GLADLY pay taxes!

galiel

How do you get from my post "to having a hard time sympathizing with claims that freedom is restricted in America??"

My point was that there will a hard-fought battles to PRESERVE freedoms that will be threatened by the folks currently in power, and that those of us who don't run away or put our heads in the sand will bear the brunt of that battle. The point is that freedom, in particular religious freedom, may BECOME restricted in America as a result of these elections.

galiel

Thank you. At least some people read posts carefully. (Damn, Corwin, speaking of trends, if we're not careful we will start agreeing more often than we disagree! If that isn't a sign of the End Days, I don't know what is.)

Corwin

No I've already had agreements with Elwoodblues.

Yes I watched the Four Horsemen ride past at the time....

Buffman

IMHO, the points made by galiel and Sabine Grant are well worth further examination.

Is a America a place or an ideal? I think it is both. A place where an ideal was born, nurtured and grew into greatness.

galiel points out that the American ideal is worth fighting and dying for to keep "it" alive.

Sabine points out that those who have been denied the ability to place that ideal into practice are more inclined to appreciate its true value.

The reason I spend the majority of my time and effort in the C-SS forum is because I believe that the clarity of that ideal is being masked by the efforts of certain groups to prostitute that ideal to their own vested interest agenda and ends. For them, the ends justify the means. For the majority of people drawn to these forums, it is the means that justify the ends. In the C-SS forum, I attempt to provide the most accurate information (means) I can find about how the unique American ideal (end) was born and why it captured the hearts and minds of humans across the globe.

Freedom to legally express one's individual conscience without fear of retribution by government, or any other organized expression of repressive power, endows each human with the control over their own natural world destiny. That's a pretty heady, and often scary, ideal. It means that each individual must be responsible for their own words and actions...or lack thereof. That is a very demanding challenge to a creature filled with emotions and drives about which they know, or understand, very little. It is far easier to simply let others do their thinking, acting and speaking for them.

Fortunately our Constitution's framing fathers hit upon a governing formula that institutionalized and nurtured that ideal while empowering the collective wisdom of the citizenry to change the formula when it no longer served their best interests....which they have now done some 27 times since 1787.

One may, for whatever reason, absent themselves from a place. However, they will never be able to absent themselves from the validity of the true ideal. It is because I believe that individual liberty is the highest ideal, to which all of humanity should aspire, that I spent a career in the support and defense of the U.S. Constitution. I was fully prepared to give my life in that cause. I did not swear to support and defend a place, a flag, a book or a piece of paper. I swore to defend the ideal represented in all of those items and many more. Why? Because I understood the historical birthing process of the ideal and the enormous amount of human sacrifice that must go into keeping it alive, healthy and growing.

[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: Buffman ]</p>

randomsyllable

I nominate the following as a short list:

Japan (Pro: Already highly advanced and secular Con: we're gaijin and it costs a lot)
Italy (Pro: Great people, get to piss of the neighbours read: Vatican Con: Got the neighbours read: Vatican)
Canada (Not great but I couldn't not put this in - after all, surely the UN index counts for something?)
Cuba (Pro: Great weather, sounds thrilling and slightly dangerous Con: Seeing how the US treats Cuba while you still reside in the US...lets just say thrills and dangers may occurr)

My thoughts on the subject ;p

Ab_Normal

Buffman: <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" /> <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />

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