El_Hober

When it comes to the debate between free will and determinism, honestly, who cares? It seems to me that we wouldn't be able to tell the difference either way.

How do we know we aren't fated to make the decisions we make, and free will is only an illusion? And either way, it makes no difference in our lives.

Philosoft

Heh. Atheists care becase we're really looking for some way to blame God for this mess.

John Page

How do you suppose it seems to you that way? Why wouldn't we be able to tell the difference?

Cheers, John

beastmaster

My belief in determinism does make a difference. I feel like I understand human behavior better with the insights of determinism. I'm trying to think of specific examples, and I'm coming up blank right now.

El_Hober

:banghead:
{unneccessary snide comment}Maybe you would know if you had read the sentence before that.{/unneccessary snide comment}

But seriously: It could be that everything is predetermined, and all choices but the one we actually make at any given time are impossible, and could not occur. But, either way, it would seem that we have free will, whether we actually do or not.

We think that we just made a choice, but in fact our consciousness is only moving along, experiencing a predetermined chain of events, thoughts, and emotions. If those predetermined thoughts and emotions include the belief that you are making choices, you will know that you are making choices, when in fact, you are not.

Nowhere357

Does what matter? Free will vs determinism, or whether anyone cares?

How do you know the universe isn't illusion?

If fate is true, why move out of the way of the bus? Or even remove a splinter?

If free will is real, what difference do you suppose that would make in our lives?

John Page

By what or whom do you consider they be pre-determined by? Pre-determined is different than something being predictable - the former implies an a priori cause whereas the latter just requires us to project the result of the forces at play.

flatland

Nowhere: The Lazy Argument, of Stoic fame. the point is that if everything is fated, then your response to a given situation is as well. You might as well act as you would were you in true control of your actions, since that's what will happen anyway. Accepting the Lazy argument just makes you depressed.

Of course, whether you do so or not is also pre-determined.

Warwick

I acknowledged the alternatives and chose to vote that it really doesn't matter.

John Page

So why did you bother? Surely, something must "matter" in order for you to vote.

Let me propose that it does matter in forming our attitudes toward the laws of society. If it is not someone's "fault" that they have a brain lesion that causes them to be violent occasionally (even though they are held accountable and held away from harming society) then you might seek to understand the situation and treat the individual more compassionately than if you had supposed they were possessed of an evil will and should be put to death.

Did I change your vote?