ju'iblex

only twice? pft. go home.

Darth Dane

And here's your first real mistake. The Brahma doesn't have the historical and other evidential support that the totality of Christianity offers. The common ploy of equating Christianity with Buddhism, Hinduism or Snake God worship is ludicrous and is indicative of a desperate attempt at tossing the 'real' thing into the heap of falsehoods.


How many times have you read the Bhagavad gita?

The Bhagavad Gita is more than 5000 years old (afaik, correct me if I am wrong)

I have studied and found that the totality you look for is also present in the Bhagavad Gita, but if you, based on your belief(blessed be ) discount this book, because you can't relate to it, how can you say that it doesn't hold this totality?

One Rainbow, many colors.
One Field, many flowers.

You've picked a flower you consider beautiful, others have picked another flower, but they all grow on the field of Love.

You know the flower you've picked up(you found 31.000 inconsistencies withthis flower), but have you really picked up another flower, without comparing it to the flower you found first?

How shall I judge between flowers on the field of Love?


My God doesn't judge the flowers, and neither shall I.(I'm doing my best, thats for sure(I could be self-delusional, but hey...))
I shall play in the field, with other children, laughing at the marvel of the many flowers in this beautiful garden.







DD - Love & Laughter

mfaber

I wasn't going to respond to Jorge, who style of "argument" reminds me of Outspoken/LouisBooth over at CF (all obfuscation and ad hominem), but the above is quite ridiculous. Why I disagree with this:
REASON #1: It violates "free-will"...
So what you are saying is that a True Christian™ can't be atheist? This means that we would expect 100% of all True Christians™ to be "locked into that position" in that no point of evidence, reason, logic, etc. can presuade one to abandon that position, EVER. If that is true, that means that a True Christian™ doesn't have the all important FREE WILL to choose.

If you STILL claim that you DO have the free will to choose atheism, then why couldn't people who claim to be atheists NOW simply have exercised their FREE WILL to reject Christianity after having once accepted it (EXACTLY what you position would be IF you decide to reject Christianity NOW, by claiming that you still have the free will to do so)? Your position is ultimately self-contradictory or else you are maintaining a double standard with regard to free will===>Atheists have exercised their free will to reject Christianity so God is "just" in condemning them to Hell. However, the True Christain™ can't exercise free will and make the "wrong choice" (what condemns the atheist). I thought God wasn't supposed to "rig the game" so that people couldn't choose. The best one can say of such a situation is that it is a rigged game.

REASON #2: How to define the TRUE Christian™ (who defines this?)
You are operating under the "no true Scotsman" fallacy . The above is just a variant of "but they weren't TRUE Christians™" ! This argument that atheists/non-believers were never TRUE Christains™ doesn't wash because Christians themselves haven't been able to agree on what a TRUE Christain™ is (you have an ecumenical statement defining the phrase "TRUE Christain™" that has been attested to by all of the thousands of Christian sects?).

You has also just insulted all atheists who were once Christians by implying that they didn't know their own minds (were kidding themselves about being Christians) and/or are just plain liars. Many Christians often complain that they "get no respect" and often get ridiculed for their beliefs. Did it ever occur to you that part of the "ridicule and disrespect" that you encounter from "non-believers" is just a reaction to this sort of arrogant attitude from you? Namely, that only you, know the definition of what constitutes a TRUE Christian™.....If one was EVER a TRUE Christian™ , they couldn't possibly deconvert! Most people's reaction to this kind of hubris is going to be "well, who in the sam-hill appointed you the One-True-Judge of who is or is/was not a TRUE Christian™"?!!! Ask yourself how disposed you would be to listen to someone who came at you with that sort of attitude?

REASON #3: The perils of "us-vs-them"
Non-believers almost always have this thrown at them by the "but atheists were never TRUE Christains™" crowd:

I JOHN 2:19
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

I find this "us versus them"(they were not all of us) mind set to be a very dangerous one because this is often an excuse by the "us" side to take orchestrate all kinds of discrimination (up to and including murder) against the "them" side. If that were not so, then the history of Christianity would not be replete with examples of Christain atrocities against non-Christians and Christain-on-Christian violence (in battles over possession of the TRUE Christains™ "trademark")

Non-believers reject the "authority" of the Bible anyway. Why should ANYONE listen to you (do you have evidence that your "Authority" aka the Christian god is real and indeed "said" anything attributed to Him?).

All you have done here is use the usual Christain "crafty tailor" words... Just exactly like the duplicitous tailors in The Emperor's New Clothes. The only people who couldn't "see" their new clothes were stupid, lazy incompetents. The religious version of that is one that just tells me that I can't find God because

1. But you were never a TRUE Christian™! (hence you don't "get it")
2. Non-believers are just ignorant and don't ask the "right questions" (do pray enlighten us on the right questions to ask. So far you have refused to supply an answer to that question or even debate any contradiction put to....you just blow it off.
3. Non-believers haven't looked hard enough"
4. Non-believers are just willfully "blind".
5. Other Christian "crafty tailor" standards are:
   -----a.Non-believers are deluded by Satan
   -----b.Atheists just want to be free to do evil.

This is a good way to extract compliance and is another card played by the control freak who says ==>"do what I want or I'll assassinate your character", what a logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well"(a form of ad hominem attack instead an argument for one's case). Non-believers are lambasted at every opportunity with poisoning-the-well (character assassination) against knowledge cult-mind control blurbs such as:
----a.2 Peter 3:3
Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
----b. Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
----c.Psalm 53:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.
----d. Tirades like this (Word document)against using logic and science to make decisions
----e. John 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.(a bribe of "blessings' to disregard one's reason if the threat of character assassination fails)

Just thought I'd let you know we're on to your game......

Not only are you vainglorious about what you know, you not being fair, so you hope is "vain" as well.

Jorge

Originally posted by Haran

For the record, Jorge, yes. I have had dealings with some very sincere and logical atheists here who seem to only want to find the truth.

Then you're one up on me, Haran.

Jorge, most people in the various churches I have gone to throughout my life have not read the Bible as many times as many of the atheists here have. I can't have historical discussions with many of them because they don't know the first thing. They have a faith that does not need to question and that is fine for them.

I can't believe you're saying this.

Reading the Bible is not nearly as important as how the Bible is read.

Before I read the Bible, I pray to God to grant me understanding of His word - an understanding that surpasses human understanding. I don't know if you do the same but I can assure you that the Atheist does not pray to God to enable them for the spiritual guidance that is necessary to understand His word.

IOW, it doesn't really matter if an Atheist reads Scripture all day long - it's 'message' will remain obscure to them because they lack the discerning spirit that only God can provide. They read the Bible as they would read Darwin's Origin of Species. No wait, I take that back - they have more reverence towards Origin of Species. And so they get nothing out of Scripture except meaningless words with all manner of "confused contradiction"! God Himself tells us this in His words.

You appear to be completely unaware of these things, Haran.

However, many do question, and I am one of them as are many here.

God allows questions... "Come and let us reason together" says the Lord. But the heart must be in the right attitude. Scoffers and invincible ignorance is not what God has in mind when He invites questions, Haran.

I don't always appreciate or agree with their conclusions, but that doesn't mean I can't learn something new from listening to an opposite viewpoint. It never hurts to look at things from a different angle. Many times the truth seems to lie somewhere in between.

As I said before, I always learn from everyone - that is not at issue.

I hope my comments lead me to the acceptance that those around us here are, for the most part, honest and interested people too. They want answers, Jorge, not put-downs. I do not agree with what you call boldness, and in fact think you may have it backwards.

Opinion noted.

I think you should look to Jesus' stern words to the Pharisees, most of Jesus' "boldness" was directed at them. Look at the example of Jesus... Who was he with? Who did he teach? Who did he reserve some of his strongest words for? Please think about this, Jorge.

Haran, please, you aren't speaking to a novice. Your last question regarding His "strongest words" - I know the answer you expect but you are wrong.

Did He or did He not reprimand the beloved apostle Peter with the very harsh words "Get thee behind me, Satan!"? To be compared to Satan by Christ Himself is... super-rough, wouldn't you agree?

I try very hard to follow Jesus in all areas and one thing about Him that is perfectly clear to me is that He doesn't mince words - a spade is called a spade. He does this with those He loves as well as with those that oppose Him. He is not a respector of persons, Haran.

So what exactly were you getting at?

Take it from someone who's been here a while. If you speak in such a way as to make people angry, they will not listen to you. As you can see, the posts here have not been focused on Christianity, how to become a Christian, or even what should have been the point of a thread in BC&A (i.e. debating others of perceived discrepancies in the Bible). Instead, much of this thread has been a reaction to what many, including myself, see as insults from someone who has not yet even proved their own merit in Biblical studies. If you want your opinion appreciated here, I'm afraid you'll have to display some of that knowledge, even if others may deny what you say.

I hear you loud and clear... we'll see...

I would say that the only way your stay here would be beneficial is to give humility a go and listen to your fellow humanbeings' concerns. Some will not be honest. Look past them to those who are, but don't insult them.

Insult is never an objective of mine. One thing you ought to be aware of (apparently you aren't) is that there exist those mining for anything that might even be remotely construed as an insult in order to justify their position.

To wit: I've used here the term 'ignorance' often. Many people get insulted at being called 'ignorant' and yet anyone with a working brain has to say that if we are all one thing, that thing is ignorant. It has been my experience that nothing offends materialistic Naturalists more than being called ignorant - it's actually quite funny.

Hey, in the ignorance parade I hold the lead position and I recognize this fact. You see, I'm not arrogant, Haran; I'm simply honest to a level that anti-Christians aren't accustomed to and they react accordingly.

Perhaps you will not agree, but those are my rather strong opinions on the matter.

Opinions noted.

If you wish more information on a one-to-one Christain level, you have my email address.

I'll be stepping down for a spell. I have surgery coming up soon and need time to reflect on certain points.

Be well and thanks for everything.

Jorge

Darth Dane

Jorge: Do you plan to comment on my questions?





DD - Love & Laughter

braces_for_impact

I started reading through this passage with interest, and some initial anger at the O.P. Then as I continued to read, I noticed that all of his posts seem to be one giant ad hominem attack.

There is no supporting documentaion or substantive commentary whatsoever. A lot of chest beating and arrogance.

If anyone wondered where we get our sterotype of the "fundie" I would invite them to read this thread.

BioBeing

How about praying to God to allow you to believe in what Darwin wrote before you read On the Origin of Species? You have to be in the right frame of mind to recieve his words... (btw - do you reject the theory of evolution? If so, how many times have you read On the Origin of Species? How many years have you spent studying biology? )

Good luck with the surgery.

Aravnah Ornan

I wasn't aware that Scientific American claimed to be the infallible Word of G-d and the source of all teaching necessary for salvation. Then again, maybe you aren't reading it with the proper discerning spirit.

Derweisswolf

Finally. You speaketh the truth...

missus_gumby

Here's hoping all goes well for you.

Perhaps while you are away from these boards you may care to reflect on why you didn't answer my points about cockatrices and sackbuts! After all, it would have been the christian thing to do wouldn't it? Here's the proof:
Martin