gravitybow

After an exchange like that, I doubt a DC-style discussion will follow.

Rusting Car Bumper

gravitybow is correct.

The fact is that the reasons and abstract arguments that people give when answering the question above do not reflect the real reasons they believe.

If you ask believers if they will give up their belief in god if you refute the cosmological argument or the fine tuning argument, or the design argument (and so on) then they will almost always respond that they will not. If that's so then the questions are irrelevant to any practical considerations.

All this being so, the most relevant questions are ones of interpersonal relations, mutual respect, common values and beliefs, and so on.

DC

BadBadBad

Have you ever had this conversation with a 10 year old?

His mommy told him he had to believe this or he's going to hell. Believing this is the definition of what it is to be a good person. If you don't believe this, you're a bad person. I am a good person, I don't want to go to hell therefore I believe in God. That just about covers it. His mommy told him it's true and anyone who denies it is working SAATAAN! Then she took him to church and the nice people there showed him how to deal with people like you. Cover your ears and yell La La Laaaaa La La Laaaaa La La Laaaaa! If he keeps talking Run away! Run away! Run away! How can you argue with that?

I read a church news letter last night. There's always something that catches my attention and gets a chuckle. They want you to bring your kid to church so that they can help you protect him from all the brainwashing that goes on outside of church!

The only difference between this youth minister and the 10 year old is that he's had more brainwashing. The core arguments remain the same.

Evil Milkman

Ok, I'm home from school now. I'll see if I can make things more clear now.

Ah yes, I forgot to go into detail on exactly why I was going to talk with the youth minister. Since I have recently deconverted, my girlfriend has had a little trouble coping. She is starting to understand a little why I left, and she is curious. My girlfriend has asked me to sit down with her minister before, but I refused. But, I've changed my mind and agreed to at least talk through some of my questions. Sure, I don't believe anymore, but I'll do anything for my girlfriend if it will make her feel more at ease. She realizes that I won't reconvert to Christianity because I talk with her minister, rather, she would feel more comforted if I talked to someone about it besides herself. DigitalChicken, if I have any troubles after my talk with the youth minister, then I'll talk with him using your style. I hope it doesn't come to that, but you gave me a very good idea that I can use for back up.

Very good point. Justice is likely to come up anyway, but I guess I can ask him what is "just" for an all knowing, all powerful god to send any person to eternal torment. I'll keep coming back to that point. I'll basically tell him that I don't care how abstract God's "justice" is, if He is sending people to hell, he doesn't care or He hates us. I can't let my guard down, I guess.

Psycho Economist, I'll try to answer the hypothetical questions you posted in the next post.

Brilliant.

You can be certain that I'll be adding that to my question list.

Indeed, this is what I plan to do. He'll have to make sense to me. This won't happen, so I'm preparing for the worst. I'm guessing that if I don't budge, he'll eventually start trying to bash my lack of faith. Hopefully, my girlfriend will see right through this. After all, she's just there for listening and learning. Hopefully, she won't buy everything the minister says.

I was originally going to ask for evidence of God's existence, but I decided against it. You're right, it would be giving him an advantage in the discussion. So, I am indeed going to start the way I was going to in the first place: What exclusive evidence is there for a deity? For your deity? Is there anything you know of that can't be rationally explained? Writer@Large, I'm glad you brought this to my attention again. It seems so obvious now.

Great! I have a feeling he'll basically tell me that all non-Christians are wrong, and I'll follow up with a simple "why?" Benefit of the doubt... so true.

This would seem like it would fit in there somewhere. But then again, HelenM's hypothetical response is likely what he'll fire back with. I think it wouldn't take long to get this far into the discussion, so I'll have to first ask if there is evidence for a God-inspired Bible.

D'oh.

Bingo. I could ask something along the lines of this: "If God created the universe and people perfect, then how really could it become imperfect? If He created everything imperfect, then wasn't He just setting Himself up?" Does that work?

I will start my discussion with this question. After all of the obligatory run around that will inevitably ensue, I will probably just say, "Well, that didn't get anything accomplished. Ok, for the sake of discussion (if it isn't too late in the evening), let's just assume that all of these qualities about God are applicable..." Then we'll go from there, I won't let my guard down.

This is so very true. Like I mentioned earlier in this post, I will go back to the advice you give me if my girlfriend starts to resent me. If she doesn't, then I guess I don't have a problem, right? But, if she shows any signs of being uncomfortable around me in the future, I will go back to talking with her minister... and this time, not about the existance or other questions about "God".

Well, if anyone has anymore comments/suggestions that you think might be helpful, I'd appreciate hearing them. Thanks for your responses to my situation.

Amos

Good luck and just do the best you can. You'll be OK.

Evil Milkman

These are Psycho Economist's hypothetical "rebuttals" to my questions.


1: The Fall was the first step in an elaborate plan to cull the truly faithful from the unworthy. God knew it would happen, and intended for it to happen. What he wants is to cultivate 144,000 celibate male yes-men with no concept of reality to fill the ranks of his eternal ego-stroking chorus of their own volition.


My response this question:

This is evading the true issue, isn't it? If God's sense of justice is this, then I have no need for it.

2: It's not God's fault you're going to hell. You are already condemned because of your fallen / sinful / imperfect nature. Salvation is there for the taking or refusing. All you have to do is say you that you suck, that you believe the world is flat and that neuroscience is a lie, and a seat in the choir loft will be waiting for you.

My response:

Again, does God really not care? Does He not know? He does? Well, screw Him, then.

3: God transcends human understanding, he's that omnipotent. Worldly psychology doesn't apply. Maybe he has feelings, maybe he doesn't. And what a perfect being who lacks an all-volunteer chorus to tell him how great he is for all eternity... is an all-volunteer chorus to tell him how great he is for all eternity. Sure, he could conjure up one himself... that's what angels are for. But they're not really volunteers.

My response:

Yes, but how can you really know that God transcends human understanding.

4: Salvation is yours for the taking or the refusing. If you refuse salvation, eternal torture is the choice you make by default. He's giving you exactly what you asked for: I can't think of anything more compassionate.

God isn't compassionate if He ordains eternal torture, whether He ordains it in His plan, or if He knows but doesn't prevent someone's eternal damnation.

So, what do you think? Could I be more plain in my responses? I'm sure he'll get annoyed, though. I won't let him off the hook.

Rusting Car Bumper

I would suggest doing the opposite.

I would start with the style of questions I suggest and then work to the apologetic ones. It will put him at ease and turn the conversation of one of seeking truth and sharing ideas as opposed to blunt argument.

You are forgetting the psychology of the situation. If you start questioning beliefs and ask him to prove something, you are basically starting out by saying "I am right and you are wrong." It's likely that you will NEVER get to common ground when you start this way. Remember people don't really believe in god and Jesus and all that for all these abstract reasons that he will give. They believe because of all sorts of non-rational reasons which are often difficult to verbalize.

DC

Pensee

I'm going to copy a few portions of a letter I sent to a (now x) friend, detailing why I can't believe in god anymore. These were my main problems with god/Xianity. They brought me from theist to atheist.

(New insert for this post: my point is that once sent to hell, god doesn't give anyone a chance to redeem him/herself.)

-----------------------------

That was painful. Pensee needs a hug.

long winded fool

I'd also agree with Digital Chicken and Bumble Bee Tuna, and I'd warn you that going into detailed cross-examination of Christian theology often carries a "Here is why you should be an atheist" connotation to Christians. If you value your girlfriend's relationship with her youth minister, I'd take DC's advice and show him what a nice guy you are and ask him what you can do to respect your girlfriend's religious beliefs. It is up to the minister to convince you to be a theist, if that's his goal. If he steers the conversation that way you don't need to worry about anything except honest, critical thinking. Don't let him "convince" you unless you are honestly convinced. A good apologist can get an atheist to agree with everything he says by asking him to momentarily accept an unproven premise "for the sake of argument." Just don't forget that the eloquence of his conclusion is irrelevant if he can't provide a true premise that you both agree with. Just relax and remember his premises and you'll do fine.

Evil Milkman

Will do. I'm relatively new to debating and discussing theology with others, much less an ordained Youth Minister (TM). I'd like to note that Matt (the minister) has already met me and I've been to his Sunday school classes before a handful of times.

I will be arranging my letters so that DigitalChicken's orginal questions will be the first to be asked.

On hindsight, I too believe that this would be the best way to start off a discusion. I don't want to come off as a cynical, evil atheist. Just a nice guy who's trying to comfort his girlfriend while also asking him some of my questions that used to keep me up at night.