Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 01-02-2002, 07:57 AM

Do Christians really get their morality from God and the Bible? Christians are always quoting scripture to show the morality that they say the Bible (and thus God) teaches. But they seem to be very selective. I have never seen any maninstream Chritians quoting scripture to support the morality of executing people for working on Sunday, for stoning your daughter to death for not being a virgin when she get's married, etc. Western society in general is (rightly I'd say) appauled by the idea of such morality being preached. So, most western Christians don't preach it. In effect, they are using their own moral compass to determine what to teach from the Bible and what not to teach.

Obviously, some Christian sects preach more or less of the "morality" in the bible. Why is there a difference? Because the leaders and members of each sect are choosing their own moral direction.

How is that an objective morality handed down by God?

Jamie

RyanS2 · 01-02-2002, 08:00 AM

I think this was Mark Twain, but I remember a comment by one writer to the effect of:

"It's never the business of the Church to dictate social affairs and morality. The Bible has well over 200 laws that nobody would ever think of enforcing or approving. It is society that dictates morality, not vice versa."

scigirl · 01-02-2002, 10:20 AM

In a word, No.

scigirl

excreationist · 01-02-2002, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
...I have never seen any maninstream Chritians quoting scripture to support the morality of executing people for working on Sunday,...

The Sabbath actually goes from sun-down Friday to sun-down Saturday. There are also other laws relating to the Sabbath. e.g. you can't light a fire (or a candle?) inside your dwellings (<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=EXOD+35:3&language=english&version=N IV&showfn=off" target="_blank">Exodus 35:3</a>) though I think you can light one beforehand, and leave it burning.

Here's the command:
Exodus 31:15 - "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

Exodus 35:2 - "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

<a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=numbers+15:32-36&version=NIV&showfn=yes&showxref=yes&language=en glish" target="_blank">Numbers 15:32-36</a> gives an example of a man found gathering wood on the Sabbath being put to death - personally ordered by God.

from <a href="http://www.religioustolerance.org/sabbath.htm" target="_blank">ReligiousTolerance.org - The Weekly Sabbath - Saturday or Sunday?</a> :

Quote:

During the period 30 CE to 313 CE, Christians lived in a predominately Pagan world:

- The long established, official religion of the Roman Empire was Pagan.
- A strong competitor to Christianity in those days was a third religion: Mithraism. This faith involved the worship of a Persian God Mithra, and was popular among the Roman civil service and military.

Both of these religions reserved Sunday as their day of religious observance. Many Christians were probably tempted to follow suit.

The Christians were also motivated to change the Sabbath day as a method of distancing themselves from the Jews. Two reasons were:

- The Government was intermittently persecuting the Jews at this time; it was safer for Christianity to be considered as a separate religion rather than as a sect of Judaism.
Relations between the Jews and Christians was hostile at this time. The early Christian church had suffered much persecution from the Jews.

In 321 CE, while a Pagan sun-worshiper, the Emperor Constantine declared that Sunday was to be a day of rest:

"On the venerable day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country however persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits because it often happens that another day is not suitable for gain-sowing or vine planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost."

The Church Council of Laodicea circa 364 CE ordered that religious observances were to be conducted on Sunday, not Saturday. Sunday became the new Sabbath. They ruled: "Christians shall not Judaize and be idle on Saturday, but shall work on that day." There are many indicators in the historical record that some Christians ignored the Church's ruling. Sabbath observance was noted in Wales in 1115 CE. Francis Xavier was concerned about Sabbath worship in Goa India in 1560 CE; he called for the Inquisition to set up an office there to stamp out what he called "Jewish wickedness". A Catholic Provincial Council suppressed the practice in Norway in 1435 CE.

The Resistance · 01-02-2002, 06:43 PM

Do you really think that the words "objective" and "Christian" should be allowed in the same sentence?

yygke · 01-02-2002, 11:53 PM

Sometimes it's almost amusing how out-of-context and you guys can abuse scripture. Before you guys start accusing Christians of misquoting scripture to fit our needs, let me clarify a few things.

Quote:

Here's the command:
Exodus 31:15 - "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day must be put to death."

Exodus 35:2 - "For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death."

Numbers 15:32-36 gives an example of a man found gathering wood on the Sabbath being put to death - personally ordered by God.

and then...

Quote:

Do you really think that the words "objective" and "Christian" should be allowed in the same sentence?

Actually, I don't think that "excreationist" should be allowed to continue to miseducate people. He is obviously ignorant of the facts of Christianty. When you guys (Jamie_L and excreationist) say that Christians believe in killing someone who breaks the Sabbath, it's almost laughable. Do you guys even realize that Christianity and Judaism are not the same thing?!? It would be like me saying that evolution isn't true because a bacteria can't give birth to a human.

The quoted verses DO NOT apply directly to Christians. Maybe we can learn something from them, but they do not apply to us. It was God's commandment to His nation (Israel).

Hey Jamie...another choice quote...

Quote:

...for stoning your daughter to death for not being a virgin when she get's married...

Hey, do you remember the story of the woman who was caught in the very act of adultery and she was taken out to be stoned, but Jesus stopped the crowd and said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Hmm, that doesn't sound like what you were describing. I think you might want to do a little research before attacking Christians next time.

[ January 03, 2002: Message edited by: yygke ]

excreationist · 01-03-2002, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by yygke:
Actually, I don't think that "excreationist" should be allowed to continue to miseducate people. He is obviously ignorant of the facts of Christianty. When you guys (Jamie_L and excreationist) say that Christians believe in killing someone who breaks the Sabbath, it's almost laughable. Do you guys even realize that Christianity and Judaism are not the same thing?!? It would be like me saying that evolution isn't true because a bacteria can't give birth to a human.

I just meant that these were from the ten commandments that were given to God's people. Many Christians say that they follow the ten commandments.

Quote:

The quoted verses DO NOT apply directly to Christians. Maybe we can learn something from them, but they do not apply to us. It was God's commandment to His nation (Israel).

Why is there capital punishment for murder then? Christians probably use the Bible to justify it. If there is capital punishment for murder as one of the commandments prescribes, why not punish Sabbath-breaking as well.
Even if sabbath-breaking isn't punished, what verses say that Christians can work on the Sabbath (Saturday)? Remember that Jesus says to love God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength. So Christians should probably respect God's special day.

Quote:

Hey, do you remember the story of the woman who was caught in the very act of adultery and she was taken out to be stoned, but Jesus stopped the crowd and said, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her." Hmm, that doesn't sound like what you were describing. I think you might want to do a little research before attacking Christians next time.

Well Jesus was a Jew and I thought the commandments that God gave applied to all Jews. Well since Jesus is God I guess he doesn't have to follow those commandments (to help stone the adulteress).

Anyway, the point of this thread is about objective morality - Christians often claim that God has given them a clear code of conduct. But it seems that they ignore much of the law given to Moses. I was wondering, how can you distinguish between what laws God still wants Christians to keep and which only applied to the Jews? Isn't it better to be on the safe side and just try to keep all of the laws? (Since Christians are meant to love God with all their heart, mind, soul and strength).

Bill Snedden · 01-03-2002, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jamie_L:
How is that an objective morality handed down by God?

Leaving aside for a moment the issues surrounding the alleged "objectivity" of biblical morality, the primary reason many Christians have for asserting that their moral system is objective stems from their belief that God is the basis of all value.

As "objective" is defined as "existing independently of consciousness", and God has existence separate from the human mind (or so they claim

), His moral law is therefore claimed to be objective.

Unfortunately, it's just not that simple. God's moral law is indubitably the product of His own consciousness, therefore it is no less subjective than our own moral beliefs otherwise would be. Christians have merely substituted one being's moral judgements for their own.

To this analysis, the Christian might object that God's moral law does not derive from His subjective consciousness, but from His nature. God, they argue, is good and therefore His will can only reflect that.

Unfortunately, all they have done here is to redefine "good" as "God" and declare themselves correct. One could make the same argument for Usama bin Laden and the only defense possible for the Christian would be one of special pleading.

Of course, all I've done here is to expand Scigirl's succint and no less correct response: NO.

Regards,

Bill Snedden

Jamie_L · 01-03-2002, 04:50 AM

yygke:

Of course many Christians don't follow the OT to the letter. But some (especially fundamentalists) seem to want to - in some places. My point is that across the spectrum of Christianity, people seem to pick and choose their morality. They have their own sense of morality that the back up with the Bible. Often with OT quotes. If you're going to use the OT as a moral authority, then why only parts? Because they only agree with parts. The truth is these people do not derive their morality from the Bible, but from themselves.

Obviously Christians vary widely in their beliefs, but I think that supports rather than weakens my point.

Jamie

LianaLi · 01-03-2002, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by:yygke

Sometimes it's almost amusing how out-of-context and you guys can abuse scripture. Before you guys start accusing Christians of misquoting scripture to fit our needs, let me clarify a few things.
....
The quoted verses DO NOT apply directly to Christians. Maybe we can learn something from them, but they do not apply to us. It was God's commandment to His nation (Israel).

Then how do you explain the following gospel verse in light of Jesus' practice as a Jew? Lest we all forget, Jesus did grow up and died practicing the Hebrew faith.

Quote:

Matthew 5:17-18

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

Jesus' statement clearly shows he does not regard the Old Testament laws as obsolete practices irrelevant.

IMHO, most xians follow Paul's example for disregarding the Old Testament laws. The dispute over the applicability of Jewish religious law arose in the early church, and can be seen in his letters.

Quote:

1 Corinthians 7:17-19

Nevertheless, each one should retain the place in life that the Lord assigned to him and to which God has called him. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God's commands is what counts.

Actually, a search for circumcision in the <a href="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible" target="_blank">New Testament </a> on the sight posted shows scriptural evidence for the heated debate. Remember, it was strongly believed by the Jews that the Messiah was meant for God’s Chosen People only to re-establish the kingdom of David, which led to the headed disputes of whether or not the Hebrew law was applicable to followers of the early church. Paul rather clearly settles the debate, by stating circumcision is unnecessary for the gentiles who accepted Jesus’ message. Which is kind of, well, odd considering Paul advocates “keeping god’s law” and the common practice of the church was to celebrate the Sabbath, and then celebrate the breaking of the bread on the first day of the week, which came directly afterwards. The catch is, only the circumcised/converts to the Hebrew faith could celebrate the Sabbath. And the early church gathered gentiles as followers. So around and around and around the debate goes! Paul does not think strict adherence to the Jewish laws is necessary for salvation, but….

Quote:

John 13:15-17

I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

It would be rather hypocrititcal to go against Jesus’ teaching, wouldn’t it?

-Liana

01-02-2002, 07:57 AM	#1
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	Do Christians really have an objective morality? Do Christians really get their morality from God and the Bible? Christians are always quoting scripture to show the morality that they say the Bible (and thus God) teaches. But they seem to be very selective. I have never seen any maninstream Chritians quoting scripture to support the morality of executing people for working on Sunday, for stoning your daughter to death for not being a virgin when she get's married, etc. Western society in general is (rightly I'd say) appauled by the idea of such morality being preached. So, most western Christians don't preach it. In effect, they are using their own moral compass to determine what to teach from the Bible and what not to teach. Obviously, some Christian sects preach more or less of the "morality" in the bible. Why is there a difference? Because the leaders and members of each sect are choosing their own moral direction. How is that an objective morality handed down by God? Jamie

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01-02-2002, 08:00 AM	#2
RyanS2 Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Louisiana Posts: 216	I think this was Mark Twain, but I remember a comment by one writer to the effect of: "It's never the business of the Church to dictate social affairs and morality. The Bible has well over 200 laws that nobody would ever think of enforcing or approving. It is society that dictates morality, not vice versa."

01-02-2002, 10:20 AM	#3
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	In a word, No. scigirl

01-02-2002, 06:43 PM	#5
The Resistance Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 571	Do you really think that the words "objective" and "Christian" should be allowed in the same sentence?

01-03-2002, 04:50 AM	#9
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	yygke: Of course many Christians don't follow the OT to the letter. But some (especially fundamentalists) seem to want to - in some places. My point is that across the spectrum of Christianity, people seem to pick and choose their morality. They have their own sense of morality that the back up with the Bible. Often with OT quotes. If you're going to use the OT as a moral authority, then why only parts? Because they only agree with parts. The truth is these people do not derive their morality from the Bible, but from themselves. Obviously Christians vary widely in their beliefs, but I think that supports rather than weakens my point. Jamie

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