Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jamie_L · 11-07-2002, 11:40 AM

SOMMS:

I hope the brusque replies from some folks don't steer you completely away from this thread, because I'm still interested in hearing some of your explanations.

Your idea about revelation being delivered only to those who earnestly seek it is one I have encountered before. Although someone above said it rudely, you may not realize that your position on this is an accusatory attack on people like myself who believe we did earnestly seek truth, and found that an existing God was not that truth.

In effect, this position, that we did not seek hard enough or correctly, boils down to either saying people like me are lying about how hard we sought God, or it says we are incompetent and don't know how to seek God. I may be missing another possible explanation, so fill in the blanks if you have one.

Jamie

sakrilege · 11-07-2002, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by galiel:
It's a waste of time. SOMMs is just a Fundie with an irrational dogma. Having a rational discussion doesn't make sense with people who do not believe in the primacy of reason.

galiel

I agree that SOMMS is just a fundie with an irrational dogma but I am learning alot from the other posters. There are a variety of thoughts and presentations of arguments that I had not thought of before. This has been an educational thread for me and I would like to see it continue.

Susan

Goliath · 11-07-2002, 01:05 PM

I don't honestly see the point in continuing this thread. SOMMS refuses to prove his claim that evidence for his god's alleged existence depends on one's attitude towards said god, so he has been absolutely, completely, and utterly refuted.

What else is there left to discuss?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Apikorus · 11-07-2002, 01:16 PM

SOMMS has pulled this stunt before. In another thread some time ago, I pointed out that even a patently absurd claim, such as that our thoughts are controlled by a giant extraterrestrial blue rhinocerous, could never be rigorously proven false. SOMMS claimed that he could indeed prove that his thoughts were his own, whence I challenged him. He then insisted that I first produce a proof of a statement which I had never advocated, and when I refused, he promptly refused to state his own "proof".

He also managed to ignore my earlier question in this thread, namely "What if Satan's superiority to God were only revealed to those who wholeheartedly seek Satan?"

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-07-2002, 01:33 PM

phlebas,

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:

The main relevant one you missed, unless I missed your response, was God's silence when I *did* believe in him and *did* want to find him.

I would like to respond to this. Frankly, I don't have enough information about you, you search, what was going on in your life etc. You are the authority on such matters...so only you can really make the call on it.

I can reflect on my own personal experiences. Whether you think they're relevant or not is up to you. Like I said, when I was searching for God I was really looking for a sign. I was searching for 'God the objectve fact', some proof from heaven that I could then make my decision on.
As I said...I heard/saw/felt nothing. This gave way to my atheism. It wasn't until I broke down and sought 'God the person' that I found him. Then evidence became abundant and clear. In my personal life, in the way I acted, in the way I felt, in the way other people could see an obvious change.

I will say this, however, there have been times in my life when I embraced sin and God, after much warning, became silent. A certain aspect may be true for you. I don't know...only you do.

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:

Even if I accept that God would hide from my atheist self now (although that still makes no sense either -- what better way to cure my atheism than showing himself), I don't understand why he would have left a confused teenager on his own.

In truth he never did. Maybe your parents did. Maybe whatever crazy church you may have been going to did. Maybe your friends did. Not God though.

You said something I'd like to comment on. 'What better way to cure atheism than showing himself.' God isn't interested in 'curing' atheism. God isn't interested in being some objective fact like gravity that people can acknowledge then think nothing more about. God is interested in having personal relationships with mankind. Hence, when I searched for 'God the fact' not much was found. When I searched for 'God the person'...it was a whole different story.

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:

SOMMS:How is it a stretch? It is a legitimate question. How would you know if God was 'calling you back'?

Ummm... I would hear some sort of ringing?

Ok. Now we are getting somewhere. Relative to your phone metaphore what could that be?

I have no idea. You would think an all-knowing and all-powerful God would be able to give me a sign I would recognize.

[suggestion]It could be a conversation you might have in web forum.[/suggestion]

Could be. If so, I haven't had that conversation yet

Humor noted. :^)

Seriously, what if this post was God 'ringing you back?' Not only that...he would be ringing you back with information on how to get a hold of him.

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:

I'm not sure how your attitude was at some point in the past, but it is pretty obvious what your attitude is right now.

I've told you what my attitude was in the past. You can assume I'm lying if that helps hold your syllogism together.

I'm not assuming your lying.

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:

Would you agree that IF God did exist and our attitude towards him matters THEN your attitude my be hampering any evidence/revelation of him?

If there is a God who is too weak to prove his existence to an atheist, then I agree that my atheism makes it impossible for God to prove himself to me.

This assumes that IF God exists...THEN he is trying to prove his existence to atheists...which is false. Your assumption that if God exists then he is trying to prove his existence to mankind is completely wrong. Can you comment on this?

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:

1. If A, then B.
2. A
3. Therefore, B

Not A :^) ..see above.

Quote:

Originally posted by phlebas:

SOMMS:What if God has been trying to get in touch with you but your attitude towards God disallows it?

YOU:Then he's still an embarrassment as a deity.

Why? Because you refuse to listen?

Because he is incapable of (or unwilling to) making himself heard.

I think this is our main point of contention.

You assume IF God exists THEN he is trying to prove his existence to everybody. As has been mentioned in our discussion...this is not what God is 'trying' to do. God is wishes to have a personal relationship with every one of us. We cannot, however, unless we seek God with an open attitude.

I see no foul done here.

Thoughts and comments welcomed,

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas · 11-07-2002, 01:42 PM

Goliath,

Quote:

Originally posted by Goliath:
I don't honestly see the point in continuing this thread. SOMMS refuses to prove his claim that evidence for his god's alleged existence depends on one's attitude towards said god, so he has been absolutely, completely, and utterly refuted.

What else is there left to discuss?

Sincerely,

Goliath

I thought you picked up on this. ???

You are my proof Goliath.

Your posts are my proof that 'ones revelation of X is dependent upon ones attitude towards X'

You were seeking some revelation of me...namely my proof that attitude affects revelation.

However, because of your attitude...I refused to give it to you.

Thus your revelation of me was affected by your attitude towards me.

Fini

Satan Oscillate My Metallic Sonatas

Llyricist · 11-07-2002, 01:50 PM

So God is spiteful????

Goliath · 11-07-2002, 03:14 PM

SOMMS,

Quote:

You are my proof Goliath.

Your posts are my proof that 'ones revelation of X is dependent upon ones attitude towards X'

I do not see how such a conclusion follows. Please prove that my existence implies that the evidence that your god allegedly exists is dependent upon one's attitude towards said god. Leave no steps out, and carefully explain each step in your proof. If you cannot do this, then you have failed.

Quote:

You were seeking some revelation of me...namely my proof that attitude affects revelation.

However, because of your attitude...I refused to give it to you.

Wrong. I was seeking a proof of your claim that the evidence that your god allegedly exists is dependent upon one's attitude towards said god. How many times do I have to remind you to pay attention?

The fact that you have not produced a proof of your claim means that you have failed, and have been soundly trounced.

Sincerely,

Goliath

Philosoft · 11-07-2002, 04:59 PM

SOMMS,

God allegedly created a set of beings with a reasoning process that is roughly, with respect to allegedly existing things, as follows:

1) being B senses object O
2) B declares O exists
3) B uses intellect to discern things about O

Presumably, this is the process God intended. It seems to work well enough. This is how we fundamentally think about things large and small. Now, what you are proposing is that God intends us to eschew this process only in the instance of his existence, the most important existential decision thanks to the big guy himself. Is it really a huge surprise when a significant number of beings don't find this acceptable?

Jobar · 11-07-2002, 05:36 PM

SOMMS, your stated reason for refusing to reply to Goliath is disingenuous. How many Bible verses, hymns, sermons, and testimonials make plain that God wants *everyone* to know him, and share in his grace? By saying that your god does not care for the unbelievers in the world, and cares not for their salvation, puts you outside Christianity, I think.

Nor have you answered my question back on pg. 2 (IIRC)- why is your god to be judged differently than any other posited-but-unevidenced idea? Have you opened yourself fully and honestly to the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn? If not, how can you be sure that She does not exist? What makes your god so bloody special??

I think I am going to pull rank on you. If you don't answer this question, I'm going to append this question to every one of your posts in this thread from now on; if you cannot answer it, your argument is proven invalid. J.

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11-07-2002, 11:40 AM	#191
Jamie_L Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: U.S. Posts: 2,565	SOMMS: I hope the brusque replies from some folks don't steer you completely away from this thread, because I'm still interested in hearing some of your explanations. Your idea about revelation being delivered only to those who earnestly seek it is one I have encountered before. Although someone above said it rudely, you may not realize that your position on this is an accusatory attack on people like myself who believe we did earnestly seek truth, and found that an existing God was not that truth. In effect, this position, that we did not seek hard enough or correctly, boils down to either saying people like me are lying about how hard we sought God, or it says we are incompetent and don't know how to seek God. I may be missing another possible explanation, so fill in the blanks if you have one. Jamie

11-07-2002, 01:05 PM	#193
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	I don't honestly see the point in continuing this thread. SOMMS refuses to prove his claim that evidence for his god's alleged existence depends on one's attitude towards said god, so he has been absolutely, completely, and utterly refuted. What else is there left to discuss? Sincerely, Goliath

11-07-2002, 01:16 PM	#194
Apikorus Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Chicago Posts: 1,396	SOMMS has pulled this stunt before. In another thread some time ago, I pointed out that even a patently absurd claim, such as that our thoughts are controlled by a giant extraterrestrial blue rhinocerous, could never be rigorously proven false. SOMMS claimed that he could indeed prove that his thoughts were his own, whence I challenged him. He then insisted that I first produce a proof of a statement which I had never advocated, and when I refused, he promptly refused to state his own "proof". He also managed to ignore my earlier question in this thread, namely "What if Satan's superiority to God were only revealed to those who wholeheartedly seek Satan?"

11-07-2002, 01:50 PM	#197
Llyricist Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Lauderale, FL Posts: 5,390	So God is spiteful????

11-07-2002, 04:59 PM	#199
Philosoft Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Southeast of disorder Posts: 6,829	SOMMS, God allegedly created a set of beings with a reasoning process that is roughly, with respect to allegedly existing things, as follows: 1) being B senses object O 2) B declares O exists 3) B uses intellect to discern things about O Presumably, this is the process God intended. It seems to work well enough. This is how we fundamentally think about things large and small. Now, what you are proposing is that God intends us to eschew this process only in the instance of his existence, the most important existential decision thanks to the big guy himself. Is it really a huge surprise when a significant number of beings don't find this acceptable?

11-07-2002, 05:36 PM	#200
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	SOMMS, your stated reason for refusing to reply to Goliath is disingenuous. How many Bible verses, hymns, sermons, and testimonials make plain that God wants everyone to know him, and share in his grace? By saying that your god does not care for the unbelievers in the world, and cares not for their salvation, puts you outside Christianity, I think. Nor have you answered my question back on pg. 2 (IIRC)- why is your god to be judged differently than any other posited-but-unevidenced idea? Have you opened yourself fully and honestly to the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn? If not, how can you be sure that She does not exist? What makes your god so bloody special?? I think I am going to pull rank on you. If you don't answer this question, I'm going to append this question to every one of your posts in this thread from now on; if you cannot answer it, your argument is proven invalid. J.

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