dangin

I looked around, and found the texts I referred to mentioned, but no one was talking about how they contrast the modern Koran.

And it doesn't answer my question. If the koran is infalible, what's with the different versions. And if you use the excuse that written arabic wasn't as refined as it is today, then why did Allah dictate something to Muhammed without helping him with his writing first. Muhammed was illiterate right? So Allah could have given it to him in anyway he chose, and it wouldn't have mattered to Muhammed.

[ November 13, 2002: Message edited by: dangin ]</p>

Sarpedon

I have the rather cynical view that religion originated with similar practices to those of the ancient egyptian pharaohs and Chinese emperors, who claimed to be divine, and to control the elements through their offerings to their god relatives. Therefore, the origin of political power and religion were largely the same thing. I also define politics as encompassing economic activity and the propogation of ideas. In that way I agree with marx. (his definitions anyway) My view of religious leaders and organized religion in general is that none of the leadership really believes, but is more concerned with material and political gain. The paragons of this are such people in my country, Cardinal Bernard Law, who would never have done what he did if he believed in Hell, and the "reverends" Jesse Jackson and Jerry Falwell. Even the activities of such highly regarded religious leaders as Pope J.P 2 and Mother Theresa are very suspect. Hell, I'm even suspicious of the Dalai Lama. There's a lot of ecumenicalism in the world today, and I think its true that there are certain truths that cross the boundaries between faiths: that is religion is all about money, power, and avoiding real work.

Sarpedon

I guess my opinion of islam is based upon my idea that there are two kinds of people in the world. Normal people and Jerks. No group has a monopoly on either, and most groups are not composed of only one or the other. Now, certain muslims, being jerks, have undertaken to do some violent and disgusting things. The rest of muslims, not being jerks, are minding their own business. If islam never arose, and the dominant religion of the Middle East was say, zorastrianism, who can say that the zoro jerks wouldn't be just as destructive as the muslim jerks. Likewise, if these particular jerks were born in different countries, they would end up christian jerks, hindu jerks, or buddhist jerks.

Sabine Grant

Salaam Alikum Dreamer!

I grew up partialy in Morroco and my mother grew up in the colonalized times of Algeria. My recollection of Islam and how it influenced the culture in Morocco is a positive one. Granted the deceased King HassanII benefited of European education and remained influenced by the Western World. His son is even more progressist( I believe same generation and style as King Abdulah of Jordan).
All that to say that my perception of Islam may be different than someone who lived in a fundamentalist regime. I studied some of Qram as part of mandatory education in the school system at the time. Again being a child, I do not think I was able to grab the whole essence of the book.

I can only comment on the muslims my father worked with and his friends. I was always fascinated by the display of hospitality islamic families offered to us.The warmth and abundance of generosity were always present. When the Ramadan came, I recall being impressed by the tenacity of his workers who went from sunrise to sundown without any nutrition. The muslim women we interacted with were indeed under a dominaring patriachal system but they also nurtured a sense of community life as a result. They would cook together for hours, wash the clothes at the fountain together and built their own social circle.

I cannot recall living under any threat as an "infidel" while in Morocco. I had my little hands and feet painted with henna a couple of times... but I benefited of a father who encouraged me to mingle rather than separate.

Algeria was another story. The country was under great political torment. Violence prevailed. Yet the fellaga who pointed a gun at me and my aunt was not motivated by his religion but his desire to regain the land he believed to be his.

I do not think that the islamic faith encourages violence and terrorism. That the religion is twisted by radical and fundamentalist individuals to justify their hatred , that I do believe. It is the scapegoat to justify a political agendum.The western world suffers of the same syndrom with christianity.

Sabine Grant

Dreamer : I am not so familiar with the summit branch of Islam. Do you believe in the return of the Mahdi (hope my spelling is OK there) the 12th Iman who had disappeared? that is an intriguing part of islamic beliefs because he seems to be presented as a potential messiah. What are your thoughts on that? which branch of islam nurture that belief?

hinduwoman

Dreamer87, Mecca and Medina are so sacred to Muslims so that no churches should be built there. Well kabba was sacred long before to idolators but Muhammad had no hesitation in breaking their idols in the name of his god and stealing their most sacred site. That idol-breaking example is the one followed by Muslim invaders in India and Taliban. So whatever you say they were being good Muslims in that. If not, then Muhammad was wrong also.

many modern Muslims argue about the violent verses in the way you do; however millions accept them at face value. Also millions through centuries have accepted, including schools of law, and have persecuted non-Muslims based on their interpretation of Koran. Why do you think you have interpreted it correctly?
No matter how much context you apply look at 9:29 ----
[9.25] Certainly Allah helped you in many battlefields and on the day of Hunain,
when your great numbers made you vain, but they availed you nothing and the
earth became strait to you notwithstanding its spaciousness, then you turned
back retreating.
[9.26] Then Allah sent down His tranquillity upon His Apostle and upon the
believers, and sent down hosts which you did not see, and chastised those who
disbelieved, and that is the reward of the unbelievers.
[9.27] Then will Allah after this turn (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and
Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[9.28] O you who believe! the idolaters are nothing but unclean, so they shall
not approach the Sacred Mosque after this year; and if you fear poverty then
Allah will enrich you out of His grace if He please; surely Allah is Knowing
Wise.
[9.29] Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do
they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the
religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the
tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.
[9.30] And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The
Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate
the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are
turned away!

The entire passage reeks of hate for those who refuse to accept Muhammad's religion. You might argue that this applies only to pagans and Jews of his time, but that is not how it had been perceived by millions. This hate is extended to all who disbelieve. They are further strengtened by the hadiths,

I quoted the whole passage just so you would not be able to say 'out of context'. the order is very clear here. They are told to make war and tell polytheists that they can accept Islam or die, which is not peaceful.

Muslim persecution of non-Muslims are therefore based on sound grounds.


What is more when it comes to the Jews, it is Muhammad who apparently went on the offensive,

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 447:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
While we were in the mosque, Allah's Apostle came out and said, "Let us proceed to the Jews." So we went out with him till we came to Bait-al-Midras. The Prophet stood up there and called them, saying, "O assembly of Jews! Surrender to Allah (embrace Islam) and you will be safe!" They said, "You have conveyed Allah's message, O Aba-al-Qasim" Allah's Apostle then said to them, "That is what I want; embrace Islam and you will be safe." They said, "You have conveyed the message, O Aba-al-Qasim." Allah's Apostle then said to them, "That is what I want," and repeated his words for the third time and added, "Know that the earth is for Allah and I want to exile you from this land, so whoever among you has property he should sell it, otherwise, know that the land is for Allah and His Apostle."

Hadith Malik 511:1588, The last statement that Muhammad made was: "O Lord, perish the Jews and Christians. They made churches of the graves of their prophets. There shall be no two faiths in Arabia."
And who just told him that Arabia belongs to his religion alone?


Punishment for blasphemy as decreed in Islamic countires is perfectly consistent with the foundations of Islam. There are of courses verses in the koran, which is backed up by what Muhammad says.
Bukhari Volume 4 Number 260
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, 'Had I been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.'

Volume 6 Number 577
I heard the Prophet saying, 'In the last days (of the world) there will appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them, for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection.'


And just in case any muslim gets the scientific spirit, Muhammad warns him --
, Volume 4 Number 496
Allah's Apostle said, "Satan comes to one of you and says, 'Who created so-and-so? 'till he says, 'Who has created your Lord? ' So, when he inspires such a question, one should seek refuge with Allah and give up such thoughts."

As for Muhammd's moral character,

There is always Aisha. Today in most countries, Muhammad would have been put in jail for having sex with a nine year old , never mind his claims to prophethood. Since this is a frequent challenge I assume you have some defense?
Killing of people who spoke against him like the lady poet who was knifed as she suckled her infant, which provides jusrification for Rushdie's fatwa.
After a battle plundering the defeated, enslaving them, distributing women to the soldiers.

YOU WILL NEVER PROGRESS UNTIL YOU DUMP SUCH SCRIPTURES; IF YOU MUST CLING TO YOUR FAITH, FORGET THEM AS SOMETHING IRRELEVANT.
Reform yourself like the ahmediyyas.

hinduwoman

Edited by hinduwoman --- deleted this post.

[ November 17, 2002: Message edited by: hinduwoman ]</p>

hinduwoman

What is more here are some opinions which clash your interpretation that Muslims are not supposed to fight with pagans who have abided by their agreements.
,
Dr. M. Khan, : "Allah revealed in Sura Bara'at (Repentance, IX) the order to discard (all) obligations (covenants, etc), and commanded the Muslims to fight against all the Pagans as well as against the people of the Scriptures (Jews and Christians) if they do not embrace Islam, till they pay the Jizia with willing submission and feel themselves subdued (as it is revealed in Q. 9:29). So the Muslims were not permitted to abandon "the fighting" against them (Pagans, Jews and Christians) and to reconcile with them and to suspend hostilities against them for an unlimited period while they are STRONG and have the ability to fight against them. So at first "the fighting" was forbidden, then it was permitted, and after that it was made obligatory "[Introduction to English translation of Sahih Bukhari, p.xxiv.]

Dr. Sobhy as-Saleh, a contemporary Islamic academician, quoted Imam Suyuti the author of Itqan Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an who wrote: ?The command to fight the infidels was DELAYED UNTIL THE MUSLIMS BECOME STRONG, but when they were weak they were commanded to endure and be patient. [ Sobhy as_Saleh, Mabaheth Fi 'Ulum al- Qur'an, Dar al-'Ilm Lel-Malayeen, Beirut, 1983, p.269.]

Dr. Sobhy, in a footnote, commends the opinion of a scholar named Zarkashi who said: "Allah the most high and wise revealed to Mohammad in his weak condition what suited the situation, because of his mercy to him and his followers. For if He gave them the command to fight while they were weak it would have been embarrassing and most difficult, but when the most high made Islam victorious He commanded him with what suited the situation, that is asking the people of the Book to become Muslims or to pay the levied tax, and the infidels to become Muslims or face death. These two options, to fight or to have peace return according to the strength or the weakness of the Muslims."

Given that the West is stronger than Islamic world should we trust you?
Will you write a book challenging these writers directly?

Bubba

Dreamer, let me take a different approach from Hunduwoman, although I agree with her 100 percent. Why would Allah punish me for drinking beer, eating pork (which is a fine food) and looing at women?

Wouldn't Saudi Arabia be a better place if playboy could do a "Women of Saudi" feature?

Seriously, I've been to Israel and have seen firsthand what the Palestinians have had to put up with. I think in some ways the Arab/Muslim people have a legit gripe against America and the west. Also, I think Saudi Arabia is a cool country in a lot of ways. I wish I knew more about it.

While I totally reject the quran and Muhammad as a prophet I do admire the faith of many Muslims. If they (or you) find religious belief good for you then fine. Religious freedom is a cornerstone of western democracy and western thought.

However, I don't for a minute trust Islam to leave me in peace should Muslims achieve a religious majority in the west.

So I guess I'm trying to say that I like Arab people. I like Saudi Arabia. I respect people's right to believe. And I'm going to enjoy a cold beer, cook myself some pork spare ribs, and look forward to the day when Playboy does a photoshoot in Ryadah.

Bubba

Dreamer_87

Hey Everyone,

Sorry about my very long absence: I've been busy with Ramadan. 8 days to go...

I'll try my best to offer replies tomorrow,

Thanks for your participation!

Best regards,
Dreamer