Freethought & Rationalism Archive

emotional · 07-02-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by brettc
Make up anything you want. Just assert that anything that comes out of your mouth is absolutely true.

<snip>

You've convinced me. You are the ultimate God guru, and I'm now convinced that of all the professed prophets and truth sayers throughout the history of mankind, you and only you are the true source of knowledge about God. Can you write down your beliefs into a Bible? We'll hold it sacred. We'll make you a saint. Sure would be a shame to just let all this knowledge about God you've aquired through your measely life die with you.

It seems to me you can't read properly. I did state external sources for what I believe, yet you still claim I'm making it up.

Again, for a reading-impaired person like you:

Near-Death Experiences

Books such as Spirit Teachings

Those are my sources. QED that I'm not making this up. Whether you attach any value to those sources is another question (I'm sure you don't, being the close-minded materialist that you are).

As for your assertion that I won't be aware of anything when I die, that is, well, an assertion. It's your right - and it's my right to believe otherwise.

Hoping for a more civilised debate, without having to contend with superior-feeling ridicule.

davidm · 07-02-2003, 09:50 AM

Emotional, I'm typing this post and sending it. According to you, I have decisional free will to do this, or not. Yet, you also maintain that God knew for all eternity that I would decide to type this post and send it.

Would you care to explain, then, how it would be possible for me NOT to type this post and send it? For if I failed to send it, God would be wrong in foreseeing that I would, and hence would not be omniscient. Omniscience and decisional free will are not compatible, by definition.

KidFury · 07-02-2003, 09:55 AM

Emotional,

Two things:

First, robots CAN make decisions if programmed to do so. We could very well be advanced robots.

Second, the Christians claim the bible is their direct link to God. If you don't have a Holy book, what is YOUR direct link to God. If you cannot provide one, we are justified in thinking you just made it up cause it feels good or that you read someone else's book who just made it up.

Thanks,

emotional · 07-02-2003, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidm
Emotional, I'm typing this post and sending it. According to you, I have decisional free will to do this, or not. Yet, you also maintain that God knew for all eternity that I would decide to type this post and send it.

Yes.

Quote:

Would you care to explain, then, how it would be possible for me NOT to type this post and send it? For if I failed to send it, God would be wrong in foreseeing that I would, and hence would not be omniscient. Omniscience and decisional free will are not compatible, by definition.

You decide whether to type and send or not. God knows what your final decision will be. Your deciding and God's knowing are parallel lines. No contradiction here.

emotional · 07-02-2003, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by KidFury
First, robots CAN make decisions if programmed to do so. We could very well be advanced robots.

Have we already succeeded in making disobedient robots? Robots we program to pick a cup and instead refuse? That's what decision is all about.

Quote:

Second, the Christians claim the bible is their direct link to God.

So what?

Quote:

If you don't have a Holy book, what is YOUR direct link to God.

First, one does not need a holy book in order to have a direct link to God. Secondly, I believe a direct link to God is impossible while still alive in this material body.

Quote:

If you cannot provide one, we are justified in thinking you just made it up cause it feels good or that you read someone else's book who just made it up.

No, you're not justified in thinking so. I stated my sources. They're not made up. People don't make NDEs up, and the one who channelled the Spirit Teachings (William Stainton Moses) received a message entirely contrary to his religious upbringing (he was raised a Christian and believed in salvation by faith in Jesus alone, whereas the teachings he channelled taught him a totally different message about God and the afterlife - hardly the thing to be expected if he had been making it up). Say whatever you think about those sources, but made up they were not.

davidm · 07-02-2003, 10:24 AM

But Emotional, if God knows in advance all my final choices, I must necessarily choose the choices he knows I will make. My so-called free will would be a subjective illusion. I may act as though I have free will, but the objective picture, seen from God's point of view, proves that I do not. Also, if God knows all the choices I will make, and he made me with that foreknowledge, he is necessarily responsible for all my evil acts and all evil acts in the world.

Finally, there is this, though lightly off-topic: The Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics, which has substantial support in the physics community, posits that every time you are faced with a choice, the world splits into at least two versions: In one version you make the choice, and in another version you do not. If this is so, it means that since birth, every choice you could make, you actually do make, in some version of reality. This theory is not currently empirically testable, but may eventually become so. If it turns out that MWI is right, what becomes of God, free choice, and personal responsibility?

emotional · 07-02-2003, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidm
But Emotional, if God knows in advance all my final choices, I must necessarily choose the choices he knows I will make.

Yes, so? The choice is still yours. A parent puts a biscuit jar in front of his kid, knowing full well that the kid will choose to take a biscuit, but the kid still makes a free-willed decision to take the biscuit.

Quote:

My so-called free will would be a subjective illusion. I may act as though I have free will, but the objective picture, seen from God's point of view, proves that I do not.

Again, these are parallel lines that never meet: God knows what you will do, and you have free will to decide.

Quote:

Also, if God knows all the choices I will make, and he made me with that foreknowledge, he is necessarily responsible for all my evil acts and all evil acts in the world.

No, He created a fully-gifted creation which is capable of self-organising and, ulimately, particularly at the human level, of free will. You cannot escape the responsibility of your actions by saying they were God's will. God's will is single: evolution into free-willed creatures. Such has been ever since the Big Bang.

Quote:

Finally, there is this, though lightly off-topic: The Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics, which has substantial support in the physics community, posits that every time you are faced with a choice, the world splits into at least two versions: In one version you make the choice, and in another version you do not. If this is so, it means that since birth, every choice you could make, you actually do make, in some version of reality. This theory is not currently empirically testable, but may eventually become so. If it turns out that MWI is right, what becomes of God, free choice, and personal responsibility?

Amazing! You're telling me solipsism is actually gaining ground in the scientific community! I find this beyond belief. They might as well convince me that the sun's shining is an illusion caused by light projection from my eyes towards the sky.

Mageth · 07-02-2003, 10:42 AM

Emotional:

No, He created a fully-gifted creation which is capable of self-organising and, ulimately, particularly at the human level, of free will. You cannot escape the responsibility of your actions by saying they were God's will. God's will is single: evolution into free-willed creatures. Such has been ever since the Big Bang.

Presumably, God knew our choices even before He created. So there was "nothing" except the thought in God's mind of Creation; that thought included all the choices we'd eventually make.

How, then, can there be anything but the illusion of free will if, even before we were created, our eventual choices were outlined, written, "set in stone" in God's mind? God's act of creation included those choices.

I ate Pascal's Wafer · 07-02-2003, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by emotional
How do you know the sun is shining? Can you prove it? Can it not be just an illusion? See where your logic leads? We know the sun is shining, and we know we have decisional free will, and we don't have to prove those things. I know that I can send my hand to type "cat" or to type "dog", and these are things I decide, and that's that, I don't have to prove it. It's axiomatic.

The difference is that a shining sun is possible if God is omniscient. You have to remember that I'm not arguing against free will. I already admitted that this is not something I want to touch. What I am arguing against is the existence of free will and an omniscient deity. My argument is that if we have free will, then God is not omniscient.

Quote:

No, it doesn't follow. Can you explain why it does? Because, for the life of me, I don't understand why God's omniscience would mean our decisions are just illusions. A) God knows everything, B) We decide to do things. Where's the contradiction? It's like saying A) The sky is blue, B) The grass is green, and saying there's a contradiction.

The contradiction comes when you allow for God created everything. As I mentioned earlier, if God did not create the universe (and, indirectly, us), then it is possible for God to be omniscient while we have free will. However, this isn't something you're willing to accept, is it? You are trying to argue that God created everything, and that we still have free will. If God created everything, then he knew what everything would do when he made it. In effect, God decided what every particle and every bit of energy would do for all eternity. Since every action is predetermined by God, there is no way for us to get around the actions he has predetermined for us. Thus, free will is an illusion. If we went against the actions predetermined by God, then it would mean that God is not omniscient because he did not know what we would do.

Quote:

That isn't fair. I hold that everyone who says there is no life after death is wrong, but I can't prove it logically or evidentially. I can argue that someone is wrong without being able to prove it.

Sure it is. You say that I'm wrong, and I'm expecting you to back it up. If you cannot logically or evidentially support your claim that I'm wrong, then don't go around declaring that I'm mistaken. You can say that within the framework of your beliefs you think I'm wrong, but that is quite different than conclusively declaring that I am wrong. Big difference.

Quote:

In other words you're effectively shutting me up. I can't back up my point. All I can do is assert: A) God must be omniscient, else He wouldn't be God, B) We have decisional free will regardless, because we know we can decide upon our actions. Point A is an EoG topic. Point B is an assumption that things are actually as we perceive them; if decisional free will is an illusion, maybe the whole world is, and then you've gone the way of solipsism and maya.

Well, if you can't address these issues, then yes. I don't mind conceded that point A is wrong. I don't mind that a god may exist who is not omniscient (or omnipotent, etc). It is you who is set on declaring that God is omniscient. I don't mind accepting point B, but remember that I also don't accept the existence of an omniscient creator either. I'm not arguing that our observations are all just illusions. However, this is what must happen if an omniscient deity created us.

The problem you have is in reconciling point A and point B. So far you are using just stating that both are true, so there. However, this is a far cry from a logical argument which effectively does reconcile the points.

If you don't have a logical argument to reconcile these two points, and you are content with accepting the truth of both points on faith, then go right ahead. Just don't declare that I am wrong unless you can back up the arguments with logic.

-Nick

emotional · 07-02-2003, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
Presumably, God knew our choices even before He created. So there was "nothing" except the thought in God's mind of Creation; that thought included all the choices we'd eventually make.

Yes, and so? We still have the ability to make decisions.

Quote:

How, then, can there be anything but the illusion of free will if, even before we were created, our eventual choices were outlined, written, "set in stone" in God's mind? God's act of creation included those choices.

The choices may be in God's mind, but you're still making them. These are parallel lines, because God is not bound by time, while you are.

When you decide to type and post your message, do you feel you're coerced to do so? If you do not feel such a coercion, then you're not coerced, full stop. We feel we have the ability to make decisions, therefore we have. Strictly speaking it's not even a "feeling", it's as strong a conviction as that of adding two plus two makes four.

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07-02-2003, 09:50 AM	#32
davidm Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 1,617	Emotional, I'm typing this post and sending it. According to you, I have decisional free will to do this, or not. Yet, you also maintain that God knew for all eternity that I would decide to type this post and send it. Would you care to explain, then, how it would be possible for me NOT to type this post and send it? For if I failed to send it, God would be wrong in foreseeing that I would, and hence would not be omniscient. Omniscience and decisional free will are not compatible, by definition.

07-02-2003, 09:55 AM	#33
KidFury Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Montreal Posts: 372	Emotional, Two things: First, robots CAN make decisions if programmed to do so. We could very well be advanced robots. Second, the Christians claim the bible is their direct link to God. If you don't have a Holy book, what is YOUR direct link to God. If you cannot provide one, we are justified in thinking you just made it up cause it feels good or that you read someone else's book who just made it up. Thanks,

07-02-2003, 10:24 AM	#36
davidm Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: New York City Posts: 1,617	But Emotional, if God knows in advance all my final choices, I must necessarily choose the choices he knows I will make. My so-called free will would be a subjective illusion. I may act as though I have free will, but the objective picture, seen from God's point of view, proves that I do not. Also, if God knows all the choices I will make, and he made me with that foreknowledge, he is necessarily responsible for all my evil acts and all evil acts in the world. Finally, there is this, though lightly off-topic: The Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics, which has substantial support in the physics community, posits that every time you are faced with a choice, the world splits into at least two versions: In one version you make the choice, and in another version you do not. If this is so, it means that since birth, every choice you could make, you actually do make, in some version of reality. This theory is not currently empirically testable, but may eventually become so. If it turns out that MWI is right, what becomes of God, free choice, and personal responsibility?

07-02-2003, 10:42 AM	#38
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Emotional: No, He created a fully-gifted creation which is capable of self-organising and, ulimately, particularly at the human level, of free will. You cannot escape the responsibility of your actions by saying they were God's will. God's will is single: evolution into free-willed creatures. Such has been ever since the Big Bang. Presumably, God knew our choices even before He created. So there was "nothing" except the thought in God's mind of Creation; that thought included all the choices we'd eventually make. How, then, can there be anything but the illusion of free will if, even before we were created, our eventual choices were outlined, written, "set in stone" in God's mind? God's act of creation included those choices.

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