Goliath

St. Robert,

When did you start making unfounded assumptions about people that you don't even know?

Do you even know what atheism is?

Sincerely,

Goliath

Kenny

Actually, if God exists, then there are an infinite number of sound arguments for His existence. The reason being that, in terms of formal logic, all that is required for an argument to be sound is that it be valid and have all true premises. If God exists, then:

1.) God exists or 2+2 = 5
2.) It is not the case that 2+2 = 5
3.) Therefore God exists

is a sound argument, under the formal definition of “sound argument.” It’s not a very useful one for convincing atheists, but it is nonetheless sound if, in fact, theism is true. If theism is false, then there are no sound arguments for theism. Koy’s statement, “The implication of course being that there aren't any and, further, cannot be any[sound arguments for theism],” is logically equivalent to the assertion that theism is false. Of course, since Koy is an atheist, it is not surprising that he should think so, but why should those of us who are theists see such an assertion being in anyway threatening to us? In point of fact, this entire discussion seems pointless and trivial.

Perhaps, what Koy really means is that there are no valid arguments for theism that contain premises which everyone is willing or feels compelled to accept. Granted, but, again, so what?

God Bless,
Kenny

[ July 13, 2002: Message edited by: Kenny ]</p>

rainbow walking

Hi Kenny,

(1) That 2+2 must equal 5 for god not to exist is not true, neither is it true that 2+2=4 is equivalent to the existence of a god. Using an invalid proposition does not a sound argument make.

Plump-DJ

Well this argument as far as i can tell is valid.

It's the LCA or Lenardos Cosmological Argument. I've tried knocking it down (to the best of my ability) and i have watched others attempt to knock it down, and fail. Does that make it sound? I do not know. The author claim's it is and he claims that in 5 years of debating this that all of his opponents have either rejected logic or held on to a fallacious position.

<a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~gbl111/cosmos.htm" target="_blank">http://home.earthlink.net/~gbl111/cosmos.htm</a>

rainbow walking

[QUOTE]Originally posted by St. Robert:
There is no sound theist argument that can convince man of the realities of God.

rw: But the god germ continues to proliferate.

Robert: Most of what God does and has done doesn't make much sense to the carnal man.

rw: Incomprehensibility is just the tip of the iceburg Robert.

Robert: Tell me, when did your heart get so petrified toward God?

rw: When I grew a brain. Now tell me, when did your mind become so petrified of your life's experiences that you succombed to the disease of theism as an artificial explanation?

rainbow walking

I haven't finished reading this and have already found a logical fallacy in his premises. It starts here:

rw: But if you postulate an INFINITE regress you will never, ever, in all eternity, come to an end...or doesn't this guy get this?

Go and tell your friend his LCA has just been busted. Because this premise isn't true it isn't possible for his conclusion to be sound.

Philosoft

If one completely ignores quantum mechanics, as does Mr. Lenardos, it is certainly possible to make absolute statements about "nothing" and "first event." His underlying assumptions that primal events are discrete and deterministic are simply that: assumptions. If they are true, then quantum mechanics is incomplete. He has nothing more than a conditional proof. Lots of those lying around.

Automaton

Well, it is not sound, because you have given no reason to accept the disjunction of P1. You're seeming to imply that if God actually existed, then his existence would be logically necessary (which assumes God actually exists, but that's another story), so if God exists, either God exists, or logic is false (a cryptic argument indeed, considering if logic is false then there's no point in using logic to show that or not that in the first place.) But I'm afraid it doesn't work because in order to work up to that disjunction you'd have to have the premise that God exists, and regardless of whether or not it is actually true or not, it would still render it circular, and hence, invalid and unsound.

Denshuu

Damn it. You guys beat me to both points I was going ot make. You're all too fast... <img src="graemlins/notworthy.gif" border="0" alt="[Not Worthy]" />
Anyway, Lenardos must not have debated many people in the past five years. His argument was ripped to shreds in an amount of time slightly less than that which would take me to cook minute rice.

seebs

Presumably, if you're an atheist, and your belief system is reasonably well explored, you don't accept any premises which logically lead to theism. So, even if such arguments exist, *you* won't consider them sound.

Soundness itself is unprovable, because it depends on proving premises, and I am not currently aware of a single premise that I can prove to be true.

Currently, I am accepting the following premises, without any real effort at proof:

1. Formal logic is a valid way for determining truth.
2. There is a world external to me with reasonably stable qualities, which I have moderately accurate perceptions of some parts of.

I am not currently aware of any arguments for theism with full logical force. There are dozens, none of which are likely to be surprising to anyone, which have some argumentative power, but not full logical force. That's fine for me; I gave up on demanding full proofs of non-mathematical things years ago, because I believe formal proof to be unattainable for many true things. (Unfortunately, I can't prove that formal proofs of most things are unattainable; fortunately, I don't care.)

Anyway, the argument that I consider most compelling is the "argument from direct personal experience", which I believe to be the one most likely to persuade the people who have the experience. The premises being totally impossible to verify for anyon else, it's not a particularly persuasive argument for anyone else. Ah, well. Such is life.