Freethought & Rationalism Archive

GaryP · 12-12-2002, 02:26 PM

My city is hosting a "Santa in the Park" program;

Santa and Mrs. Claus talk about how Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus, and that Christmas is family time and a holiday of love. The pair also explains that the spirit of Christmas expands to include the different cultural celebrations such as Hanukkah and Kwanzaa.

The Clauses are joined by Clarence and Adolph, the head woodworking elves; Aguf, the skilled woodworking toymaker and supervisor; Frederick, the blacksmith; and Santa's two brothers, Floyd and Cloyd. They all work together to provide music, some comedy and a little serious insight into what Christmas is all about. It allows them to take a little break from their busy work at the North Pole before the final rush for Christmas Eve.

The article also says
Because Santa will be unable to hear individual Christmas request from children who visit Alley Park, he will be downtown at the Bandstand in Zane Square.

This is interesting because that location is where the Nativity Scene is displayed. I wonder if that Santa "explains the true meaning of Christmas" also.

<a href="http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/news/stories/20021212/localnews/559903.html" target="_blank">Lancaster Eagle-Gazette</a>

Toto · 12-12-2002, 02:47 PM

Is this government funded or is the government just providing the space while the Chamber of Commerce sponsors it - or is Santa an entrepreneur who pays his own way by selling something (no pressure of course, right)?

And would you look like a grinch if you complained?

So is Santa going to explain how Dec 25 was really the birthday of Mithras, and early Christians took it over? That some of the Puritans who colonized this country thought Christmas was a pagan indulgence, and forbade its celebration? That True Christians would never tolerate sharing their holidays with pagans and infidels, but the political correctness so prevalent now demands this sort of compromise? That Hanukkah is not a "cultural" holiday, and has nothing to do with Christmas?

Maybe I just need to go lie down for a while.

GaryP · 12-12-2002, 02:49 PM

Toto--

It says it is sponsored by Lancaster's Parks and Recreation Dept.

Toto · 12-12-2002, 02:51 PM

Sponsorship can mean a lot of things.

Are you going to go to it to check it out?

GaryP · 12-12-2002, 02:54 PM

I had written to Americans United a few days ago.

She said she would need to know more. I sent this to her, hoping that she might write a letter to the city warning of the possible implications if they are indeed the sponsors.

This is the same city that worked to find a way to keep the Nativity Scene in another park, so I would not be at all surprised that this is strictly produced by the city.

I'm going to try to go tomorrow if I have recovered from my dental work sufficietly.

[ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: GaryP ]</p>

sakrilege · 12-22-2002, 05:47 AM

There is a nativity scene at my town hall, is there anything that can be done about it?

GaryP · 12-22-2002, 06:23 AM

You may be able to at least hassle them.

If the Nativity scene is stand alone, it would be found illegal, AFAIK.

My city had a stand alone creche for about 40 years. I asked for equal time and space for an Atheist greeting.

The city responded by moving the creche about 30 feet up the hill onto a bank's property.

The next year, it was 30ft. back downhill on city property. But they spent $5000. turning the bandstand into "Santa's House" and added 4 wooden carolers.

Although it appears to my "wondering eyes" as two separate displays because of the distance between the crech and Santa, 2 different attorneys at AU have told me that it is probably OK now.

Because previous cases have included things even across the street as being a "secularizing" element.

I was hoping the recent case in Cincinnati would have some bearing on my issue, but the AU attorney's last word to me was "no". I guess in Cincy the case was decided in favor of the Jewish group cause the city restricted free speech only during the Holidays, whereas my city does it 52 weeks a year. (They have prohibited "unattended, private displays".)

If you would like the e-mail address of the attorney I communicate with , let me know by PM.

It is too late for this year, but you maybe could raise a stink next Dec.

sakrilege · 12-22-2002, 08:02 AM

Thanks for the response. There are a bunch of secular decorations nearby. I went to the AU site and am doing some research. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to do something, it is a small town (2500) but I am thinking about it. Maybe by next year I can talk myself into it.

GaryP · 12-22-2002, 08:25 AM

It isn't easy especially in a small town.

Maybe AU or some other group can do the communicating for you. Nobody needs to know your Identity unless you get so PO'd you take them to court.

And sometimes the court allows the plaintiff to remain anonymous. I think that was the case in the TX HS football prayer issue a couple of years ago.

12-12-2002, 02:26 PM	#1
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Santa (& Jesus) in the Park My city is hosting a "Santa in the Park" program; Santa and Mrs. Claus talk about how Christmas is a celebration of the birth of Jesus, and that Christmas is family time and a holiday of love. The pair also explains that the spirit of Christmas expands to include the different cultural celebrations such as Hanukkah and Kwanzaa. The Clauses are joined by Clarence and Adolph, the head woodworking elves; Aguf, the skilled woodworking toymaker and supervisor; Frederick, the blacksmith; and Santa's two brothers, Floyd and Cloyd. They all work together to provide music, some comedy and a little serious insight into what Christmas is all about. It allows them to take a little break from their busy work at the North Pole before the final rush for Christmas Eve. The article also says Because Santa will be unable to hear individual Christmas request from children who visit Alley Park, he will be downtown at the Bandstand in Zane Square. This is interesting because that location is where the Nativity Scene is displayed. I wonder if that Santa "explains the true meaning of Christmas" also. <a href="http://www.lancastereaglegazette.com/news/stories/20021212/localnews/559903.html" target="_blank">Lancaster Eagle-Gazette</a>

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12-12-2002, 02:47 PM	#2
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Is this government funded or is the government just providing the space while the Chamber of Commerce sponsors it - or is Santa an entrepreneur who pays his own way by selling something (no pressure of course, right)? And would you look like a grinch if you complained? So is Santa going to explain how Dec 25 was really the birthday of Mithras, and early Christians took it over? That some of the Puritans who colonized this country thought Christmas was a pagan indulgence, and forbade its celebration? That True Christians would never tolerate sharing their holidays with pagans and infidels, but the political correctness so prevalent now demands this sort of compromise? That Hanukkah is not a "cultural" holiday, and has nothing to do with Christmas? Maybe I just need to go lie down for a while.

12-12-2002, 02:49 PM	#3
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	Toto-- It says it is sponsored by Lancaster's Parks and Recreation Dept.

12-12-2002, 02:51 PM	#4
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Sponsorship can mean a lot of things. Are you going to go to it to check it out?

12-12-2002, 02:54 PM	#5
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	I had written to Americans United a few days ago. She said she would need to know more. I sent this to her, hoping that she might write a letter to the city warning of the possible implications if they are indeed the sponsors. This is the same city that worked to find a way to keep the Nativity Scene in another park, so I would not be at all surprised that this is strictly produced by the city. I'm going to try to go tomorrow if I have recovered from my dental work sufficietly. [ December 12, 2002: Message edited by: GaryP ]</p>

12-22-2002, 05:47 AM	#6
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	There is a nativity scene at my town hall, is there anything that can be done about it?

12-22-2002, 06:23 AM	#7
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	You may be able to at least hassle them. If the Nativity scene is stand alone, it would be found illegal, AFAIK. My city had a stand alone creche for about 40 years. I asked for equal time and space for an Atheist greeting. The city responded by moving the creche about 30 feet up the hill onto a bank's property. The next year, it was 30ft. back downhill on city property. But they spent $5000. turning the bandstand into "Santa's House" and added 4 wooden carolers. Although it appears to my "wondering eyes" as two separate displays because of the distance between the crech and Santa, 2 different attorneys at AU have told me that it is probably OK now. Because previous cases have included things even across the street as being a "secularizing" element. I was hoping the recent case in Cincinnati would have some bearing on my issue, but the AU attorney's last word to me was "no". I guess in Cincy the case was decided in favor of the Jewish group cause the city restricted free speech only during the Holidays, whereas my city does it 52 weeks a year. (They have prohibited "unattended, private displays".) If you would like the e-mail address of the attorney I communicate with , let me know by PM. It is too late for this year, but you maybe could raise a stink next Dec.

12-22-2002, 08:02 AM	#8
sakrilege Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Cleveland, OH, USA Folding@Home Godless Team Posts: 6,211	Thanks for the response. There are a bunch of secular decorations nearby. I went to the AU site and am doing some research. I'm not sure I'm brave enough to do something, it is a small town (2500) but I am thinking about it. Maybe by next year I can talk myself into it.

12-22-2002, 08:25 AM	#9
GaryP Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Lancaster, OH Posts: 1,792	It isn't easy especially in a small town. Maybe AU or some other group can do the communicating for you. Nobody needs to know your Identity unless you get so PO'd you take them to court. And sometimes the court allows the plaintiff to remain anonymous. I think that was the case in the TX HS football prayer issue a couple of years ago.

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