Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Peter Kirby · 05-13-2003, 03:14 AM

What is panentheism? What distinguishes it from pantheism?

This question is particularly for Vinnie, who subscribes to panentheism, but may be answered by anybody.

best,
Peter Kirby

Peter Kirby · 05-13-2003, 03:19 AM

I am copying Vinnie's response over here from Biblical Criticism&Archaeology.

Quote:

Peter: Why don't you discuss why deism isn't worth discussing?

Because panentheism is so eloquent and superior

I share Marcus Borg's view (TGWNK, p. 23) that, "There is very little difference between a distant and absent God and no God as all." Deism along with pantheism might as well be atheism. I think the real reason there are deists is because the most common alternative is supernatural theism. All of the problems with this outlook on God usually force one to retreat into a deist outlook. One of my good buddies is a deist. I layed panentheism on him in an email recently but he didn't respond to it yet.

Quote:

Peter: I might believe in panentheism, if I understood what it meant. What makes it different from pantheism?

Pantheism (in a nutshell) says that the universe is God. Panenetheism affirms that the universe is God but it goes futher, God is more than the sum-total of all the parts of our universe (transcendence). Think of it like this:

Draw a circle mentally (or physically with a crayon if it is too compelx to imagine)

The universe is the circle.

1. Atheism has just the circle.
2. Pantheism has God equivalent with the circle or calls the circle or nature God.
3. Deism calls the circle creation and has God existing stationary outside the circle.
4. Supernatural Theism calls the circle creation and has God outside the circle but interacting with it (violating the laws of physics and making asses talk and axeheads float and other strange things like letting the Holocaust happen).*
5.Panenethsim is equivalent with panethism in one regard but it goes further:

Draw another circle but draw this one around the first circle.

The inner circle is existence as we know it (the universe) and the outer circle is God. God is the ground of our being. In him we live, move and have our being. He (or she) is in everything yet God is more than the sum total of all parts. That is panenethism in a nutshell. It does not force us to believe in an absentee landlord and it has the best qualities of supernatural theism without all the difficulties. It has the best of both worlds with none of the difficulties.

This is why I believe prayer works. Lets look at prayer in the 5 scenarios above. First I define prayer as "comminucating with God" and separate it from certain types of meditating.

1. Atheism--prayer may be good for meditating and orienting oneself or whatever but it is self delusion to pray to God as God does not exist. I could't pray to a non-existent God.

2. Pantheism--praying is good for meditating and orienting oneself but praying to the universe (mostly empty space) isn't all that appealing to me or many people. I can't see praying to an inanimate object

3. Deism. God may hear your prayers but he doesn't act on them outside of already established laws of nature (e.g. prayer has the effect of orienting or centering a person). The communication is all onesided as well. God is seen as distant and absent.

4. Supernatural theism--God hears, interacts amd responds to our requests. This view sounds the best thus far but the problems with this view (especially the latter aspect) are too numerous to get into here. I have a five part series on prayer here:

http://www.acfaith.com/pray.html

5. Panentheism has God as the ground of being. When we pray we are not praying to the universe (an inanimate object), an absentee landlord, the deity of supernatural theism or a non-existent deity (atheism). We are praying to a God who is right here with us. We pra6y to the one in whom we live, move and have our being.

This is from the final section on my site on the efficacy of prayer:

Quote:

The Efficacy of Prayer

I believe prayer works very effectively. I actually even support a form of petitionary prayer. As Marcus Borg said, "It seems to be a natural part of the relationship to do so, just as it feels like a way of caring for people." It can be considered equivalent to laying all your troubles and concerns at God's feet. Also, praying for others takes the preoccupation off of ourselves. When we pray for others we are thinking about them and their needs rather than being concerned chiefly with ourselves. Furthermore, faith heals and the placebo effect is real. When we pray for one another the chances of healing from certain things are increased. The body that knows it is being prayed for fights harder for some reason.

Some skeptics like Gary Posner will dismiss this as nothing more than "socialization, relaxation and placebo". But for Christians, it is quite obvious that communicating (prayer) with the one in whom we live and move and have our being, has very positive effects on our everyday lives. Despite reservations with the interventionist God of supernatural theism, any Christian can affirm that prayer works. We have clear empirical data attesting to this fact and even atheists agree that we have such data. They simply interpret it differently.

Marcus Borg (ibid, pp. 124-125) also said:

"How does it [prayer] work as a means of opening and reorienting the self? It has a number of subtle effects that become cumulative. Doing so "reminds" one of God . . . Moreover, the sheer act of doing it (regardless of content) takes seriously that life is a relationship with God: that God is there to be addressed (and to be addressed by), that the sacred is a "You" and not an "it." Conversational prayer acts on and embodies this notion. Such prayer is also a way of "spending time" in the relationship. The analogy to close human relationships is instructive: relationships are nurtured by spending time in them.

In my own case, I know that when I remember to talk to God, my life generally goes better . . . On days I remember to do so, I usually feel more centered, more present, more open, more peaceful, more appreciative. Yet I can so easily forget. When I go three or four days without "remembering" God (even though I might be thinking about God a lot, as when writing this book), my life has the opposite qualities: less centered, less present, less open, less peaceful, less appreciative. How I can know this and yet sometimes forget to pray remains a puzzle to me."

Despite valid reservations with intercessory prayer let's list some of the positive aspects of prayer in closing:

Prayer is communication with God
Prayer takes God seriously
Prayer constantly reminds us of God
Faith healings and answered prayer through the placebo effect.
When we pray for others we let them know we care.
When we pray for others we take the focus off of ourselves
Life generally seems to go better when we pray (it relaxes us, centers us, etc).

In light of all these positive effects that prayer has in the real world, it would seem quite dubious and empirically false to suggest that prayer does not work.

Panenetheism is just a different way of seeing God. Many of us think of God as a "being out there". Panenetheism brings God "right here".

Marcus Borg discusses pananethism in The God We Never Knew. I'll be picking up some Tillich soon as well.

Vinnie

*This relationship can become slightly more complex depending one who you ask as Christian- supernatural theists sometimes are smart enough to stress immanence as well as transcendence.

Celsus · 05-13-2003, 03:23 AM

Panentheism: "The belief that the Being of God includes and penetrates the whole universe, so that every part of it exists in Him, but (as against Pantheism) that His Being is more than, and is not exhausted by, the universe."
Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church

Darth Dane · 05-13-2003, 03:43 AM

Yes, that sounds like an accurate way of desribing reality, with all it's complexities, the sum total is indeed more than the parts although no more exist than teh parts!

How can 1+1 = 3?

But somehow in this explanation model it fits no?

DD - Love Spliff

Peter Kirby · 05-13-2003, 03:47 AM

"An intentional stance refers to the treating of a system as if it has intentions, irrespective of whether it does." - Summary of Dennett

Synthesizing, then, and in terms that I might understand: Panentheism is taking the intentional stance towards the universe.

That is, though you don't think that there is a separate being out there and responding to petitions, you do act as though the world makes sense and as though you are being watched over. You believe that you matter to the God of the Universe in a personal way and indeed that you have a relationship with the Cosmos.

Is that about right?

best,
Peter Kirby

Darth Dane · 05-13-2003, 04:10 AM

An intentional stance refers to the treating of a system as if it has intentions, irrespective of whether it does." - Summary of Dennett

Synthesizing, then, and in terms that I might understand: Panentheism is taking the intentional stance towards the universe.

Yes, that sounds fair enough.

That is, though you don't think that there is a separate being out there and responding to petitions,

My personal stance is, since my view colors what I see, I can't know if there is no seperate being, but given the evidence given by modern physics and spiritual teachings, A lot points to the fact that this is true, but my stance is like water, I may shift and change whenever

you do act as though the world makes sense and as though you are being watched over.

Yes, to me the sense I make of the world, makes th eworld seem like it does indeed have sense and meaning.
Since I am watching myself, Yes I feel watched over.

You believe that you matter to the God of the Universe in a personal way

I don't know, I know that I matter to me

and indeed that you have a relationship with the Cosmos.

Modern physics through Quantum theory leads us to believe that all is connected on a sub atomic level, this is what spiritual people has said through many ages.
So Yeah, I have a relationship with the cosmos, I am connected

DD - Love Spliff

Darth Dane · 05-13-2003, 04:19 AM

Panentheism and Solipsism together?

That should make sense eh?

DD - Love Spliff

Vinnie · 05-13-2003, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Darth Dane
Yes, that sounds like an accurate way of desribing reality, with all it's complexities, the sum total is indeed more than the parts although no more exist than teh parts!

How can 1+1 = 3?

But somehow in this explanation model it fits no?

DD - Love Spliff

1+1 does not equal 3 and panenetheism does not say that. It simply says that there is something about God beyond our reality. All theologians affirm this as far as I know. No one claims to be able to map out God completely. You cannot critique pananethism with the tenets of strong atheism or the world view of materialism.

Your like Mr. Square on the surface of a flat two dimensional world. Supernatural theism would have God (the cube) existing outside of the Square's reality. Panentheism has the two dimensional world as being one of the cube's (God's) sides.

Quote:

PK: Is that about right?

Partially but I'm not sure I agree with the part about being watched over. If a drunk driver swerves into me God is not going to protect me. I am not "watched over" in the supernatural sense but God is always there. I pray to God but God is not an entity like a person. God is everywhere presents and the transcendence aspects of penenetheism allows one to affirm the "personalness of God".

Panenetheism is the most consistent portait or framework for understanding God based upon evidential religious experiences that transcend culture and time.

Vinnie

Darth Dane · 05-13-2003, 04:35 AM

1+1 does not equal 3 and panenetheism does not say that. It simply says that there is something about God beyond our reality.

Yes, and what does our Reality consist of? What we can prove with science. Well science is 1+1 = 2 right?
BEYOND that(that=2=Reality) there is something more, so suddenly Reality becomes 1+1=2+(~3)

Your like Mr. Square on the surface of a flat two dimensional world. Supernatural theism would have God (the cube) existing outside of the Square's reality. Panentheism has the two dimensional world as being one of the cube's (God's) sides.

Yes, but we haven't dicovered this hidden side to God yet right? We can't prove it, if we can't prove it, it is not real, isn't taht how scince works? So as long as we only have one side and that side is "1+1=2" then it stand to reason that "1+1=2+" Because we have an unknown we cannot affirm or deny.

DD - Love Spliff

Peter Kirby · 05-13-2003, 04:39 AM

Hi Vinnie,

I don't quite understand the significance of the bit where you say that this universe (the square) is just a side of God (the cube). If that's the case, we have another name for God: the multiverse. I don't understand how making "God" out to be the Universe plus more Universe-like stuff speaks to religious experience. This universe would just be a quantum flux in an even bigger multiverse, which is still unthinking and mostly empty.

"If a drunk driver swerves into me God is not going to protect me." I'm a little surprised at this. Suppose that you survived the accident with the drunk, without any violation to natural laws. You would not say, "thank God"?

Also, I don't know how you stand on this statement: "Panentheism is taking the intentional stance towards the universe."

best,
Peter Kirby

05-13-2003, 03:14 AM	#1
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	What is panentheism? What is panentheism? What distinguishes it from pantheism? This question is particularly for Vinnie, who subscribes to panentheism, but may be answered by anybody. best, Peter Kirby

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05-13-2003, 03:23 AM	#3
Celsus Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 2,875	Panentheism: "The belief that the Being of God includes and penetrates the whole universe, so that every part of it exists in Him, but (as against Pantheism) that His Being is more than, and is not exhausted by, the universe." Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church

05-13-2003, 03:43 AM	#4
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Yes, that sounds like an accurate way of desribing reality, with all it's complexities, the sum total is indeed more than the parts although no more exist than teh parts! How can 1+1 = 3? But somehow in this explanation model it fits no? DD - Love Spliff

05-13-2003, 03:47 AM	#5
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	"An intentional stance refers to the treating of a system as if it has intentions, irrespective of whether it does." - Summary of Dennett Synthesizing, then, and in terms that I might understand: Panentheism is taking the intentional stance towards the universe. That is, though you don't think that there is a separate being out there and responding to petitions, you do act as though the world makes sense and as though you are being watched over. You believe that you matter to the God of the Universe in a personal way and indeed that you have a relationship with the Cosmos. Is that about right? best, Peter Kirby

05-13-2003, 04:10 AM	#6
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	An intentional stance refers to the treating of a system as if it has intentions, irrespective of whether it does." - Summary of Dennett Synthesizing, then, and in terms that I might understand: Panentheism is taking the intentional stance towards the universe. Yes, that sounds fair enough. That is, though you don't think that there is a separate being out there and responding to petitions, My personal stance is, since my view colors what I see, I can't know if there is no seperate being, but given the evidence given by modern physics and spiritual teachings, A lot points to the fact that this is true, but my stance is like water, I may shift and change whenever you do act as though the world makes sense and as though you are being watched over. Yes, to me the sense I make of the world, makes th eworld seem like it does indeed have sense and meaning. Since I am watching myself, Yes I feel watched over. You believe that you matter to the God of the Universe in a personal way I don't know, I know that I matter to me and indeed that you have a relationship with the Cosmos. Modern physics through Quantum theory leads us to believe that all is connected on a sub atomic level, this is what spiritual people has said through many ages. So Yeah, I have a relationship with the cosmos, I am connected DD - Love Spliff

05-13-2003, 04:19 AM	#7
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	Panentheism and Solipsism together? That should make sense eh? DD - Love Spliff

05-13-2003, 04:35 AM	#9
Darth Dane Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Required Posts: 2,349	1+1 does not equal 3 and panenetheism does not say that. It simply says that there is something about God beyond our reality. Yes, and what does our Reality consist of? What we can prove with science. Well science is 1+1 = 2 right? BEYOND that(that=2=Reality) there is something more, so suddenly Reality becomes 1+1=2+(~3) Your like Mr. Square on the surface of a flat two dimensional world. Supernatural theism would have God (the cube) existing outside of the Square's reality. Panentheism has the two dimensional world as being one of the cube's (God's) sides. Yes, but we haven't dicovered this hidden side to God yet right? We can't prove it, if we can't prove it, it is not real, isn't taht how scince works? So as long as we only have one side and that side is "1+1=2" then it stand to reason that "1+1=2+" Because we have an unknown we cannot affirm or deny. DD - Love Spliff

05-13-2003, 04:39 AM	#10
Peter Kirby Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: the reliquary of Ockham's razor Posts: 4,035	Hi Vinnie, I don't quite understand the significance of the bit where you say that this universe (the square) is just a side of God (the cube). If that's the case, we have another name for God: the multiverse. I don't understand how making "God" out to be the Universe plus more Universe-like stuff speaks to religious experience. This universe would just be a quantum flux in an even bigger multiverse, which is still unthinking and mostly empty. "If a drunk driver swerves into me God is not going to protect me." I'm a little surprised at this. Suppose that you survived the accident with the drunk, without any violation to natural laws. You would not say, "thank God"? Also, I don't know how you stand on this statement: "Panentheism is taking the intentional stance towards the universe." best, Peter Kirby

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