Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Valentine Pontifex · 07-25-2003, 08:51 PM

Michigan has an anti-evolution bill.

NCSE Story

Michigan Legislature website on the bill

Those in Michigan might consider writing their representives ASAP.

Rhaedas · 07-25-2003, 09:13 PM

(a) In the science standards, all references to "evolution" and "how species change through time" shall be modified to indicate that this is an unproven theory by adding the phrase "All students will explain the competing theories of evolution and natural selection based on random mutation and the theory that life is the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a Creator.".
(b) In the science standards for middle and high school, all references to "evolution" and "natural selection" shall be modified to indicate that these are unproven theories by adding the phrase "Describe how life may be the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a Creator.".
(c) In the science standards for middle and high school, all references to "evolution" and "natural selection" shall be modified to indicate that these are unproven theories by adding the phrase "Explain the competing theories of evolution and natural selection based on random mutation and the theory that life is the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a Creator.".

I would like an ID proponent to explain two things to me:

1) How is the mention of "a Creator" not religious...God, Yahweh, Allah, Zues, or just simple Deism, it's all religion. Which is more scientific, saying we aren't sure about the beginnings of life yet, or saying Entity X magically made life?

2) More importantly, since all I've ever seen of ID is propoganda attacks that are based on misunderstanding evolution (half the time they're attacking abiogenesis, not evolution) and I've never seen a theory that's meant to replace evolutionary theory, what exactly will be heard in the classroom?

The only way I see to teach both, is to present ID's complaints on evolution, and then the next week teach what evolution really is about.

Hey, now that I think about it, maybe that approach will be beneficial; it'll show the difference between good and bad science, and it'll clarify what evolution really is all about, so that a student of the new Michigan science classes can laugh with the rest of us when they run across the AiG website or the others.

Albion · 07-25-2003, 09:24 PM

Deary me, I wonder why they're capitalising "Creator." SURELY they aren't jumping to conclusions about the nature of said creator, are they? I thought the ID movement was still pretending to be unclear on the concept of the identity of same. They really ought to try and get their story straight.

RufusAtticus · 07-25-2003, 10:01 PM

Damn it! This type of stuff always happens in those ignorant, northern states. I thought we fought a war to get such ignorance out of our country.

Lobstrosity · 07-25-2003, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Describe how life may be the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a Creator.

How exactly does one do this? Isn't the most you can say simply "life may be the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a Creator"? After all, doesn't such a "hypothesis" place absolutely no restrictions at all on what we could potentially observe? It's not falsifiable and hence can explain anything...there's not really a whole lot to describe...

Albion · 07-25-2003, 11:57 PM

It's going to be interesting to see how they try and tie this intelligent Creator into the scientific method. And it's also going to be interesting to see which textbooks they propose using, since so far there don't seem to be too many science textbooks discussing the scientific evidence in terms of a purposeful, intelligent Creator.

JaeIsGod · 07-26-2003, 01:34 AM

This is just saddening...

And its pretty obvious who they mean by "Creator". Lemme give you one hint: It's Yahweh =]

Writer@Large · 07-26-2003, 06:47 AM

GGAAHH!!

No! Not in my own backyard!

Must e-mail my senator ... must e-mail my representative ... must bang my head againt a wall ... :banghead:

Edit to add: Oh, crap. i just remembered. My local rep is a conservative Republican ...

--W@L

Division By Zero · 07-26-2003, 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Writer@Large
Edit to add: Oh, crap. i just remembered. My local rep is a conservative Republican ...

"Oh crap" indeed.

This is absolute foolishness. Here's hoping that bill dies a hideous death.

Coragyps · 07-26-2003, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Must e-mail my senator ... must e-mail my representative

Don't. Or if you do, snail-mail as well. Real paper is allegedly much more effective.

Quote:

And it's also going to be interesting to see which textbooks they propose using,

We Texans will probably help out with that problem...

Quote:

Damn it! This type of stuff always happens in those ignorant, northern states. I thought we fought a war to get such ignorance out of our country.

damn yankees...

07-25-2003, 08:51 PM	#1
Valentine Pontifex Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Orion Arm of the Milky Way Galaxy Posts: 3,092	Michigan has an Anti-evolution Bill (Alert Alert) Michigan has an anti-evolution bill. NCSE Story Michigan Legislature website on the bill Those in Michigan might consider writing their representives ASAP.

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07-25-2003, 09:13 PM	#2
Rhaedas Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: USA Posts: 3,440	(a) In the science standards, all references to "evolution" and "how species change through time" shall be modified to indicate that this is an unproven theory by adding the phrase "All students will explain the competing theories of evolution and natural selection based on random mutation and the theory that life is the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a Creator.". (b) In the science standards for middle and high school, all references to "evolution" and "natural selection" shall be modified to indicate that these are unproven theories by adding the phrase "Describe how life may be the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a Creator.". (c) In the science standards for middle and high school, all references to "evolution" and "natural selection" shall be modified to indicate that these are unproven theories by adding the phrase "Explain the competing theories of evolution and natural selection based on random mutation and the theory that life is the result of the purposeful, intelligent design of a Creator.". I would like an ID proponent to explain two things to me: 1) How is the mention of "a Creator" not religious...God, Yahweh, Allah, Zues, or just simple Deism, it's all religion. Which is more scientific, saying we aren't sure about the beginnings of life yet, or saying Entity X magically made life? 2) More importantly, since all I've ever seen of ID is propoganda attacks that are based on misunderstanding evolution (half the time they're attacking abiogenesis, not evolution) and I've never seen a theory that's meant to replace evolutionary theory, what exactly will be heard in the classroom? The only way I see to teach both, is to present ID's complaints on evolution, and then the next week teach what evolution really is about. Hey, now that I think about it, maybe that approach will be beneficial; it'll show the difference between good and bad science, and it'll clarify what evolution really is all about, so that a student of the new Michigan science classes can laugh with the rest of us when they run across the AiG website or the others.

07-25-2003, 09:24 PM	#3
Albion Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: US east coast. And www.theroyalforums.com Posts: 2,829	Deary me, I wonder why they're capitalising "Creator." SURELY they aren't jumping to conclusions about the nature of said creator, are they? I thought the ID movement was still pretending to be unclear on the concept of the identity of same. They really ought to try and get their story straight.

07-25-2003, 10:01 PM	#4
RufusAtticus Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: NCSU Posts: 5,853	Damn it! This type of stuff always happens in those ignorant, northern states. I thought we fought a war to get such ignorance out of our country.

07-25-2003, 11:57 PM	#6
Albion Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: US east coast. And www.theroyalforums.com Posts: 2,829	It's going to be interesting to see how they try and tie this intelligent Creator into the scientific method. And it's also going to be interesting to see which textbooks they propose using, since so far there don't seem to be too many science textbooks discussing the scientific evidence in terms of a purposeful, intelligent Creator.

07-26-2003, 01:34 AM	#7
JaeIsGod Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Netherlands Posts: 760	This is just saddening... And its pretty obvious who they mean by "Creator". Lemme give you one hint: It's Yahweh =]

07-26-2003, 06:47 AM	#8
Writer@Large Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 7,198	GGAAHH!! No! Not in my own backyard! Must e-mail my senator ... must e-mail my representative ... must bang my head againt a wall ... :banghead: Edit to add: Oh, crap. i just remembered. My local rep is a conservative Republican ... --W@L

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