Amos

[Unneccessary off-topic comments deleted - BJM]

Amos

That's easy, we must become like Jesus and carry our own cross like our dear friend Gemma suggested. In other words, if we are to follow Jesus we must be yoked with him and not worship him instead.

Proctors_Gambit

Ahem?
Yoked with him as opposed to worshipping him?

Phillipians 2

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.



That sounds like worship to me, kneeling before him and calling him Lord doesnt sound like an even yoke to me.

-Gambit

Amos

But that is just the persuasion of the shepherd shining through. The Epistels were pastoral letters and do not tell us anything about the mechanics of salvation.

Proctors_Gambit

Are you kiding?
What about Pauls writings on salvation by Grace, through faith.
Surely here he is talking about the mechanics of salvation.

-gambit

Tercel

That's okay, it's an easy mistake to make given that Christians who do believe the Bible are generally the most vocal and radical (and hence more media coverage) ones.

Are you another one of these supposed "free-thinkers" who objects when Christians do it?

Suffice to say I have numerous issues with this statement. But I'm not convinced that your understanding of Christianity's history is good enough for a meaningful argument.

I'm a bit of a mix between Orthodox and a liberal protestant. I'm not going to list everything I believe here: Be specific.

I also believe...
* that heaven/hell is dependent upon whether you are a "good" person or not
* that after death all will know the truth about Christ
* that to "accept" or be "in" Christ is synonymous with being a "good" person.
* that character development can continue after death.

Clearer?

Psycho Economist

I promise I'm not Proctors_gambit's sockpuppet or vice verse, but I do have to agree with him: either the Bible's right: Adam and Eve screwed us all by learning the difference between right from wrong from Satan, Jesus came back from the dead, all un-Christians boil in lava forever, the universe is 6,000 years old, the Earth is flat and whales are fish... or the Old Testament and New Testament are no more true than the Illiad and Odyssey respectively.

Do we have any good, running threads about the nature of salvation to hash this out in, so we don't drag this one further away from Evil Milkman and his debate with Pastor Matt?

Proctors_Gambit

Tercel
Thank you for that list of your beliefs.
As they have nothing to do with Christianity besides adopting that religions deity I congratulate you on the creation of your own religion.
I'll let this topic get back in line now.
Cheers
-Gambit.

Tercel

It appears you have your opinion of what consistutes a Christian and do not wish to change it. Whether you got this opinion from TV or a neighbour or from your own feelings on what Christians should believe, I can but guess.

FYI, the beliefs I listed are typical of both Orthodox and liberal protestants. I consider them to be tolerably close to Catholic beliefs also.

Amos

By "grace through faith" is what leads you TO salvation and from there the Gospels show how us to work out our salvation.

So in my view the Gospels take place in purgatory, which is where Evil Milkman finds himself trapped and therefore cannot get out without a traumatic departure. Many of us understand him and are trying to help him get out because "we all know what it is like." This trauma will leave an permanent mark upon the soul and the imprint left will depend on the strength of the wine of Gods wrath poured in the cup of his anger (Rev.14:11).

Let me take you to Rev.13 where the first beast that came out of the celestial sea is now in purgatory for no more than 42 months. These are those who were born of God instead of carnal deisre (Jn.1:13) and are a product of the seven Cardinal Virtues placed opposite the the seven Capital Sins and will now have victory over sin (diamond studded ten commandments). They will be like Jesus and will bear the stigmata such as is made visible to all in the/our transfiguration.

The second beast came out of the earth and was reborn from carnal desire instead of God (at the age of maturity in most protestant congregations), and will be Jesus worshippers (the first beast here) for the rest of their lives. It has "two heads" to think with, one is "saved" and the other is "sinner" and so this "enriched believer" is therefore trapped in the "saved sinner" complex for life.

If the first beast was in Purgatory for 42 months and the second beast was in the same purification fire . . . . but for the rest of life, this would be equal to hell on earth.