Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Corso · 08-25-2002, 11:36 PM

Time for a little a theoretical exercise.

Barry Stark is a nice guy. He loves his family, works hard at his job and has many hobbies. But Barry has something missing in his life. He does not know God or his son Jesus.

Then one day Barry meets Howard, the local Baptist minister . The good Reverend invites him to a bible study at his church later that day. Barry is interested and promises to attend. So that evening he goes to the church and gets an introduction to the wonderful world of christianity. He likes what he hears and decides to give his life to Christ. Barry Stark is now born again. A one way ticket to heaven awaites him when he dies.

Unfortunately for Barry this not how the story actually turns out. You see, he didn�t make it to the church that night Instead, he was killed on his way there by a drunk driver. Now he spends eternity swimming in a �lake of fire�

Now given God�s supposed omniscience where will he send Barry Stark? Heaven or Hell?

In regards to this discussion the words �drunk driver� may be substituted with �hit by lightning�, �shot by a satanist� ect.

Panta Pei · 08-25-2002, 11:42 PM

God works in mysterious ways and we, as imperfect humans, can never know what was in Barry's heart at the time of his death or how our Loving Father judged his soul...

...or some such tripe.

case · 08-26-2002, 12:24 AM

This one's easy: as Barry did not accept Allah into his heart, and was considering accepting Jesus Christ, he is going to burn for all eternity.

And thank you, for that last comment. My head is now full of images of crazed Satanists running around with shotguns, with those little plastic red horns your get on halloween on their heads.

Corso · 08-26-2002, 12:42 AM

Any christians care to comment on my post? My friend Barry really needs your help!

MollyMac · 08-26-2002, 01:53 AM

Is this a quiz? I know the answer(s) because I read a discussion exactly like it on the Baptist Boards.

Answer (1) The most popular view of the good Xtian folk would be that basically, as Barry Stark doesn't live in a remote corner of Africa or South America, he will already have heard of Jesus and have had ample opportunity to be 'saved'. But he didn't avail himself of it so now he's going to burn in hell for eternity. Even those who haven't heard of Jesus will burn in hell that's it's all true Xtians must spread the gospel and prosletyze at every opportunityis so important - otherwise 'we all have blood on our hands' (Honestly, somebody actually said this).

Answer (2)(liberal alternative?) Everybody gets to meet their maker - god gives us ALL one last chance to be saved (presumably this hapens seconds after we are clinically dead) and only those who deny the incontrovertible evidence get to burn in hell for eternity. The 'evidence', by the way, is 'looking up and seeing the light and knowing that Jesus is Lord'. Phew! Looks like Barry's going to be OK.

Answer (3) (minority view) Only those who are saved get to heaven but the rest of us don't burn in hell - our bodies and spirits are simply 'annihilated', which means we just die a natural death. Cool!

Hope you are suitably enlightened.

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: mollymac ]

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: mollymac ]

Mageth · 08-26-2002, 06:22 AM

More tripe....

God doesn't give a rat's ass where we think Barry should go. Nor does god have to decide Barry's fate at the last minute. Given god's omniscience, poor Barry was consigned to either heaven or hell from the get-go, and there wasn't a damn thing he or anyone else could do about it.

[ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]

08-26-2002, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Corso:
Any christians care to comment on my post? My friend Barry really needs your help!

Corso, things are not quite the way you think they are.

The problem really is not so much that Christians are wrong but it is more that Americans are wrong because you are just as wrong as the Christians are. To speak in favor or against protestant Christianity is to accept their major premiss as a given and that is where you go wrong. To do things right you should change the constitution and abolish freedom of religion.

I take the postiton that heaven is for Catholics only and that protestants can only go to hell regardless of how many times they accept Jesus into their heart.

Born Free · 08-26-2002, 07:52 AM

Amos what about lapsed catholics and heaven??? If on my death bed I suddenly reconvert and want last rites will I still be allowed in???

Hey welcome back by the way, your unique wisdom was missed while you were gone!!! And I mean that sincerely....

Wyz_sub10 · 08-26-2002, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos:
I take the postiton that heaven is for Catholics only and that protestants can only go to hell regardless of how many times they accept Jesus into their heart.

I'm going to assume you're kidding here. I spent 25+ years as an RC (parents still are) and I never heard this line of reasoning in church or school.

I mean, my take is that there is no heaven or hell, but I question the consistency of your comments with the RC view.

Daggah · 08-26-2002, 02:04 PM

Quote:

To do things right you should change the constitution and abolish freedom of religion.

Excuse me? Are you really that dumb?

08-25-2002, 11:36 PM	#1
Corso Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 50	Heaven or Hell ? Time for a little a theoretical exercise. Barry Stark is a nice guy. He loves his family, works hard at his job and has many hobbies. But Barry has something missing in his life. He does not know God or his son Jesus. Then one day Barry meets Howard, the local Baptist minister . The good Reverend invites him to a bible study at his church later that day. Barry is interested and promises to attend. So that evening he goes to the church and gets an introduction to the wonderful world of christianity. He likes what he hears and decides to give his life to Christ. Barry Stark is now born again. A one way ticket to heaven awaites him when he dies. Unfortunately for Barry this not how the story actually turns out. You see, he didn�t make it to the church that night Instead, he was killed on his way there by a drunk driver. Now he spends eternity swimming in a �lake of fire� Now given God�s supposed omniscience where will he send Barry Stark? Heaven or Hell? In regards to this discussion the words �drunk driver� may be substituted with �hit by lightning�, �shot by a satanist� ect.

08-26-2002, 01:53 AM	#5
MollyMac Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: London, England Posts: 2,125	Is this a quiz? I know the answer(s) because I read a discussion exactly like it on the Baptist Boards. Answer (1) The most popular view of the good Xtian folk would be that basically, as Barry Stark doesn't live in a remote corner of Africa or South America, he will already have heard of Jesus and have had ample opportunity to be 'saved'. But he didn't avail himself of it so now he's going to burn in hell for eternity. Even those who haven't heard of Jesus will burn in hell that's it's all true Xtians must spread the gospel and prosletyze at every opportunityis so important - otherwise 'we all have blood on our hands' (Honestly, somebody actually said this). Answer (2)(liberal alternative?) Everybody gets to meet their maker - god gives us ALL one last chance to be saved (presumably this hapens seconds after we are clinically dead) and only those who deny the incontrovertible evidence get to burn in hell for eternity. The 'evidence', by the way, is 'looking up and seeing the light and knowing that Jesus is Lord'. Phew! Looks like Barry's going to be OK. Answer (3) (minority view) Only those who are saved get to heaven but the rest of us don't burn in hell - our bodies and spirits are simply 'annihilated', which means we just die a natural death. Cool! Hope you are suitably enlightened. [ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: mollymac ] [ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: mollymac ]</p>

08-26-2002, 06:22 AM	#6
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	More tripe.... God doesn't give a rat's ass where we think Barry should go. Nor does god have to decide Barry's fate at the last minute. Given god's omniscience, poor Barry was consigned to either heaven or hell from the get-go, and there wasn't a damn thing he or anyone else could do about it. [ August 26, 2002: Message edited by: Mageth ]</p>

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08-25-2002, 11:42 PM	#2
Panta Pei Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: in the middle of things Posts: 722	God works in mysterious ways and we, as imperfect humans, can never know what was in Barry's heart at the time of his death or how our Loving Father judged his soul... ...or some such tripe.

08-26-2002, 12:24 AM	#3
case Regular Member Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: Missouri Posts: 420	This one's easy: as Barry did not accept Allah into his heart, and was considering accepting Jesus Christ, he is going to burn for all eternity. And thank you, for that last comment. My head is now full of images of crazed Satanists running around with shotguns, with those little plastic red horns your get on halloween on their heads.

08-26-2002, 12:42 AM	#4
Corso Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Chicagoland Posts: 50	Any christians care to comment on my post? My friend Barry really needs your help!

08-26-2002, 07:52 AM	#8
Born Free Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Scotland Posts: 4,177	Amos what about lapsed catholics and heaven??? If on my death bed I suddenly reconvert and want last rites will I still be allowed in??? Hey welcome back by the way, your unique wisdom was missed while you were gone!!! And I mean that sincerely....

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