Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arbogast · 04-20-2003, 07:18 AM

Finally, I wish to emphacize...

I personally vote against any educator trying to advance an extreme Protestant religious agenda every time I goto the ballot box.

But as long as the School Board is not establishing a specific religion as a state religion, it is critical that different ideas be allowed to be discussed in a public arena. Discussion of religion is very far removed from a State establishing a certain religion.

Seems like the ACLU should be more concerned about keeping the public dialogue open ended.

AndresDeLaHoz · 04-20-2003, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arbogast
"And in that respect, how does the theory of evolution differ from any of the other scientific theories out thre, which are managing just fine without warning stickers? "

Because Evolution conflicts with profound religious beliefs of many in the community, unlike, say the Laws of Thermodynamics.

Therefore, an ackowledgement that it is a theory and not a fact respects that there is a legitamate difference of opinion.

So? There's different opinions in geology and medicine too, yet there's no warning in them.

scigirl · 04-20-2003, 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arbogast
Therefore, an ackowledgement that it is a theory and not a fact respects that there is a legitamate difference of opinion.

Define legitimate. There is absolutely zero data supporting young earth creationism. Zero. There is more data supporting crystals or astrology than that theory, and NOBODY is trying to get those quack science theories taught in public school.

I am all for teaching science better - teach methodology, not facts. But singling out evolution as a "controversial" theory while ignoring that A) there is NO data supporting YEC, and B) a whole host of other scientific theories ARE controversial (pick anything in nutrition), is intellectually dishonest.

Furthermore, the fact that you are equating anti-creationism with atheism is false. A great many christians accept evolution. My former boss for example. The pope thinks it's all right. However, very few atheists, however, accept YEC. In fact I know of none. What does this mean - YEC is a religious belief, evolution is not.

Yes I also agree that teaching evolution and the big bang calls into question some forms of biblical literalism. So does teaching literature, or history. In fact, any knowledge imparted on our precious children just might make them question their beliefs - whatever those beliefs are. I have some atheist friends, and their kids are rebelling by learning about Christianity and going to church with their friends! As a side note, I wonder why education and knowledge frightens the hell out of fundamentalist Christians like Pat Robertson. I wonder why, if Pat has the monopoly on "The Truth," as he so claims.

Putting a sticker on textbooks is about as effective, I suppose, as warning labels on cigarettes or naughty music. It does absolutely nothing to help the cause of science OR religion.

In fact, I maintain that it hurts science education. It teaches the following lessons:

1) If you don't like or agree with the data that is coming from the scientific community, you can railroad the scientific method, and get politicians to claim its invalidity.

2) It doesn't matter if a theory has a lot of evidence, and has been widely accepted by nearly every scientist for over 100 years - emotions should guide how you do science.

3) If a theory is controversial, wash your hands of it because you might offend someone. So - don't do any research on mental health, or addiction, or homosexuality. Remaining ignorant and referring back to ancient theories about these aspects of human behavior is the best way to go.

I say - scrap even teaching evolution if it's going to be taught like this. Instead, teach logic. Teach kids how to separate good science from bullshit. OR - show the kids the data from "both sides" and let them sort it out. Kids are smart - show them the chimp chromosome fusion data and ask them what they think happened. I can just hear a kid saying "Well DUH the chromosomes obviously fused - what is the big controversy?"

But then again I'm an eternal optimist.

scigirl

scigirl · 04-20-2003, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Arbogast
Seems like the ACLU should be more concerned about keeping the public dialogue open ended.

Well their job isn't to make education better, it's to keep americans from having their civil liberties trampled on. The public school boards are the ones charged with that duty.

Here is, however, the ACLU's mission statment:

Quote:

Americans enjoy a degree of religious freedom unknown in most of the rest of the world, and they take full advantage it: the United States is home to more than 1,500 different religious bodies and 360,000 churches, synagogues and mosques.

The right of each and every American to practice his or her own religion, or no religion at all, is among the most fundamental of the freedoms guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. The Constitution's framers understood very well that religious liberty can flourish only if the government leaves religion alone. The free exercise clause of the First Amendment guarantees the right to practice one's religion free of government interference. The establishment clause requires the separation of church and state. Combined, they ensure religious liberty. Yet assaults on the freedom to believe continue, both in Washington and in state legislatures around the country.

The ACLU will continue working to ensure that religious liberty is protected by keeping the government out of the religion business.

I've often heard Christians accusing the ACLU of being anti-christian - and stating "they aren't fighting for my rights to practice religion." Well that has one of two causes:

1) The ACLU is an atheist conspiracy designed to trample on all theists and promote the 'religion' of atheism everywhere!!

or

2) The theists are the ones usually violating the first amendment.

I of course believe #2 is true. Atheists rarely try to "push" their agenda (they aren't organized and don't really have an agenda). Atheists aren't out there forcing kids to sing "God is Dead get over it" at graduation. They simply want acknowledgement that not everyone believes in God and Jesus.

Furthermore, there are times when the ACLU fights for Christians (as they should - if they are being denied their civil liberties):

Quote:

In Win for Rev. Falwell (and the ACLU), Judge Rules VA Must Allow Churches to Incorporate
...
Breakthrough Religious Freedom Bill Hailed By Religious and Civil Rights Groups (07/13/2000)
WASHINGTON -- Landmark bipartisan legislation to protect religious freedom from unfair government restrictions introduced today in the Senate was applauded by an unusual collection of religious and advocacy groups - including the American Civil Liberties Union, the Family Research Council and the Baptist Joint Committee - that are often ideological foes.

scigirl

scigirl · 04-20-2003, 08:44 AM

Here are some more examples of the ACLU fighting for the rights of theists to practice their religion:

Quote:

Prisoner's Right to Keep Rosary to be Decided by Court

BOSTON, Mass. -- An inmate in a Massachusetts state prison had his rosary beads seized by prison guards, who claim that the beads signified gang affiliation, Reuters reported.

According to Reuters, the inmate, Peter Kane, says that his right to religious freedom has been violated and denies belonging to any gang.

The beads were black-and-white, and prisoners are permitted to have only solid-color beads.

Kane's attorney, John Reinstein, of the ACLU of Massachusetts, said the prison officials are sending the message that "if you want to pray, pray our way."

Quote:

NICKTOWN, PA -- Slow-moving Amish buggies are sometimes difficult for other drivers to see, especially at night, when the all-black, horse-drawn vehicles can fade into the darkness, the Associated Press reported.

According to the AP, there have been no deaths or serious injuries, but the threat has sparked a showdown with the small, conservative Swartzentruber Amish community.

Its members refuse to use the standard warning symbol of a bright orange triangle that state law requires on slow-moving vehicles, saying the colorful reflectors violate their belief in plain personal belongings. Instead, they outline the back edges of their buggies with gray reflective tape.

Although most other Amish groups in Pennsylvania use the orange reflectors, the Swartzentrubers have received the backing of the local American Civil Liberties Union.

Quote:

ACLU Opposes Fire Department Grooming Rules

WASHINGTON-- A firefighter who wears a beard to express his devotion to Islam has been ordered by the fire chief to shave it, the Washington Post reported.

According to the Post, D.C. Fire Chief Ronnie Few said Shannon Lyons must shave the beard down to a quarter-inch or he will lose his job. Few announced last week that he will begin enforcing a four-year-old department rule requiring District firefighters to wear their hair and beards at acceptable lengths.

So whether you are Amish, Catholic, Islam, or Atheist - the ACLU will help you out if your rights have been violated.

Oh and here's their web site, where I got this info.

http://www.aclu.org/

scigirl

Albion · 04-20-2003, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Because Evolution conflicts with profound religious beliefs of many in the community, unlike, say the Laws of Thermodynamics.

What relevance does that have to its scientific status? The theory of evolution explains the fact of evolution, just like all other theories explain facts. If we're going to start pretending that some theories are less solid scientificcally just because of the religious sensibilities of members of the community, we're on a very slippery slope.

scigirl · 04-20-2003, 12:55 PM

This latest creationist tactic inspired me to write about Galileo and other scientists who were suppressed by the church because of their heathen theories - you can find it here.

scigirl

Arbogast · 04-20-2003, 12:58 PM

One could argue any discussion of the Origins of Life and origins of the Universe is a slippery slope in a public school.

So there should be respect for different points of view if the subject is going to be discussed in a public school.

"What relavance does that have?"

It is a Democracy, and the opinion of the majority has importance, although not absolutely.

It is not an establishment of religion by the government, so the voters should have a write to voice there opinion without being overridden by a minority, even if the minority is better informed than they are...

Arbogast · 04-20-2003, 01:00 PM

It is that sort of issue why we have seperation of Church and State here in America, so that people arent forced to believe what others impose on them.

scigirl · 04-20-2003, 01:03 PM

So Arbogast, how far can we take this? Can the voters all decide that HIV doesn't cause aids, and force teachers to teach that? Or how about holocaust denyers? Can they put an initiative on the ballot that states, "we the voters will decide whether or not the holocaust happened, and teach our kids as such."

You can vote on how we do things, but not on the actual validity of science. That's just not how it's done - and if they don't want their kids learning science they can make their own schools. They can't force public school teachers to recant scientific theories.

I'm also interested what you think about my companion thread I just started, and if it makes you (or anyone) re-think the label issue.

scigirl

04-20-2003, 07:18 AM	#21
Arbogast Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens, Ga, USA Posts: 61	... Finally, I wish to emphacize... I personally vote against any educator trying to advance an extreme Protestant religious agenda every time I goto the ballot box. But as long as the School Board is not establishing a specific religion as a state religion, it is critical that different ideas be allowed to be discussed in a public arena. Discussion of religion is very far removed from a State establishing a certain religion. Seems like the ACLU should be more concerned about keeping the public dialogue open ended.

04-20-2003, 12:58 PM	#28
Arbogast Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens, Ga, USA Posts: 61	Well Albion One could argue any discussion of the Origins of Life and origins of the Universe is a slippery slope in a public school. So there should be respect for different points of view if the subject is going to be discussed in a public school. "What relavance does that have?" It is a Democracy, and the opinion of the majority has importance, although not absolutely. It is not an establishment of religion by the government, so the voters should have a write to voice there opinion without being overridden by a minority, even if the minority is better informed than they are...

04-20-2003, 01:00 PM	#29
Arbogast Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Athens, Ga, USA Posts: 61	Galileo It is that sort of issue why we have seperation of Church and State here in America, so that people arent forced to believe what others impose on them.

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04-20-2003, 12:55 PM	#27
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	This latest creationist tactic inspired me to write about Galileo and other scientists who were suppressed by the church because of their heathen theories - you can find it here. scigirl

04-20-2003, 01:03 PM	#30
scigirl Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Seattle Posts: 4,261	So Arbogast, how far can we take this? Can the voters all decide that HIV doesn't cause aids, and force teachers to teach that? Or how about holocaust denyers? Can they put an initiative on the ballot that states, "we the voters will decide whether or not the holocaust happened, and teach our kids as such." You can vote on how we do things, but not on the actual validity of science. That's just not how it's done - and if they don't want their kids learning science they can make their own schools. They can't force public school teachers to recant scientific theories. I'm also interested what you think about my companion thread I just started, and if it makes you (or anyone) re-think the label issue. scigirl

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