beliefisbunk

There seems to be a growing trend - esp. among the more "moderate" believers - in that a horrible event that takes over someone's life is a sign that they know for certain that god, Jesus, etc., exists and is in their lives. From this point, of course, the moderacy turns to fringe.

Let me use this example: a person who faces (or recovers from) a strongly debilitating illness.

If the person faces it: They feel that they now have god or "Jesus" to direct them in the remainder of their life/lives and that they thank the lord(s) for each additional day of life. Yet, the Christian viewpoint is that all things must happen for a reason, (i.e. that a god chooses when and how everyone will die) so, in an essence, those who use a "higher power" for their personal direction are using the same thing that gave them this illness in the first place. God could have given the person a quick death, as opposed to a slow, painful one - but he chose the ladder, an unpleasant terminal illness. Why? Are those who die from terminal illnesses being punished? If so, why should they feel thankful and rely on such for direction?

If the person survives an illness: Usually at this point they thank god or jebus or whatever b.s. existence they believe is responsible for riddance. This would basically compare if one of the DC sniper survivors stood up and applauded the shooters for not killing them. Idiotic. No sense whatsoever.

I know no god exists - no need for second notions - I just want to know what you think the mentality behind all of it is. Masochism-thank-you-sir-may-have-another, flawed thinking, biased interpretation, demenia? Sound off...

Keith Russell

Greetings:

People trust too much in other people; they believe that doctors are always right. If you are told you are going to die, by a doctor, and you DON'T die, the usual reaction is to claim that the doctor was right--you WERE going to die--but 'God' 'intervened'.

And, the doctors themselves often take this same view, reinforcing the idea that doctors are never wrong, and only 'God' can upset the future the doctors have seen.

(Only one example...but you get the idea...?)

Keith.

Oxymoron

Let's break believers down into two groups: the first have their religion woven and pounded inexorably into their lives from the moment the umbilical cord is cut, both by immediate parents and the culture and/or state they exist in; the second group are either non-believers or have some other belief until some event or series of events leaves them with a different belief system.

Clearly, the psychology is different for these groups. Brainwashing from a very young age will leave an individual with two choices: conform - and there will be a huge amount of pressure to do so - or rebel. For the conformists, by the time they reach the age of having the mental skills to be able to pose the really important questions, and the intellectual tools to answer them, these abilities will almost certainly be used to support a world view that they (and others) have invested much energy in nurturing. It's going to be hard to argue with these guys and girls, they've been kept in a box for a long time and won't like the light.

The second group have made some intellectual choice at some point. Perhaps they heard a voice or had a vision that convinced them that their belief system of choice was correct. As such, it is rather more open to skeptical analysis than the first group. However, one must question the events that caused the change in belief. Hearing voices and having visions are symptomatic of diseases such as schizophrenia, and there is a suggestion of a link (that I believe is very strong) between religious belief and mental illness.
Whatever visions or voices they might have experienced, the interpretation they put on these will largely be determined by the prevalent culture: in the West, they're almost for sure gonna become Xians because the voice will be Jebus. In Iran, they're gonna be some flavour of Muslim because it's Mohammed. Etc. So much for truth.

Common to both groups is the notion of faith. To paraphrase, "the world is this way because I decided so". Or "the world is this way because someone else says so". Or "the world is this way because a book said so". There is a real sense of denial here: blocking out the world. Why would believers do this? Because the world is f**king scary. As conscious intelligent entities, we can contemplate our own and our loved ones mortality, and we are surrounded by an enormous and complex universe that is hard to understand and therefore beyond their control. In other words, faith is a denial response to a scary world. Denial is also a symptom of mental dysfunction, and so I cannot help but conclude that religious belief is a form of mental illness.

beliefisbunk

Amen to all thoughts above.

I do believe that schizophrenia is a distinct possibility, and while I do not say that as an insult (it may be seen as an insult) a great majority of schizophrenics experience the same opinions - do remember that diagnosed schizophrenics are serious about these opinions - as theists.

Is there truly any real difference between these beliefs:

"I have a headache, the government must have put a microchip in my brain, it is because I am the second coming of Christ and I have been chosen by God to be a new saint, I feel wings growing on my shoulders."

"I recovered from cancer, it's impossible, but I know I had Jesus by my side for the whole time and I can still feel the light that God has shined on me. I have been a good human being and as a result my soul has been given an extended lease."

However one wants to look at it, there is no distinguishment. One is popularized and the other is looked at as deviant. That's it. The logic is no different.

The comfort factor could always impair true judgement - we all have our opinions altered by "wants" on many things, and this can be said even if "want" lacks reason.

Jobar

Beliefisbunk, Oxymoron- excellent posts. I'd like to learn more about Oxymoron's 'second group'- those who have changed their belief systems as a result of some occurance in their lives. Not just changing from, say, Baptist to Methodist, but really large changes- like from Islam to Christianity.

This board has many members who changed from theists to atheists, many in spite of enormous social and emotional pressure. I'd love to find out the results of major changes in belief during adulthood- I hypothesize that we would find many more changing from religion X to atheism, than we would find changing from religion X to religion Y. This, because beliefs which have not been pounded in to one from childhood show their irrationalities far more readily. Is anyone aware of any studies done on this topic?