factfinder

Quote:

--you can't expect to be seen as rational regarding god belief until you can present empirical evidence we all can examine. I've seen attempts to demonstrate god exists by semantic argument and logical argument.--

I think I could agree that the belief in God does not originate with the human school of rational thought.

What do you think drives these otherwise rational men you spoke of to be irrational only when it comes to God?

Wayne P

Factfinder:

I notice you choose not to acknowledge any of the reasons that have to do with Christianity being evil and trying to ram it's morals down everyones throat. You seem to side on how oppressed Christians are and how innocent they are.
How can you ignore the political aspects of this question? Look at the last 2000 years of the world's history, do you need anymore evidence that once Christianity becomes a state religion people who oppose it start to die? Christian's freedom of speech would not be abrogated in a secular humanist society, but would the Atheist's freedom of speech fare as well in a Christian run society??? I think history proves which way this question would be answered.
If all Christians were, as you claim to be, uninterested in converting people and running everyones lives according to their moral insights, then there wouldn't be much trouble with Christianity. But, as the churches, of whatever stripe, seem to be intent on ruling the world we, who don't agree with claims of Christianity, need to be vigilant and knowledgeable about this enemy.

Mageth

You earlier claimed that non-theists would argue ethics even if Christianity didn't exist. Where do you think this would come from?

factfinder

--I've given you my motive: I am a second-class citizen in America because I am gay and an atheist. I've never heard a secular reason for the oppression. Xianity isn't just false, I find it vile and repulsive.

-Jerry--

O.K.. Now I get it. I'm sorry I missed that on your previous post.

While Christianity does not condone your lifestyle choice, those that oppress you because of it are not representative of Christianity as Jesus taught.

We all have 'faults' & I should never assume that I am better than you (I know that I am offending you for the 'fault' allusion, but I am being honest). As a Christian, I can be an alcoholic or a slanderer, a murderer, a curser, whatever. The only difference is that Christians believe they are saved through grace in spite of our inherent weakness (otherwise, why bother with Jesus). If I thought that my life was judged on the merits of my 'sinless' self, I would throw in the towel now.

In summary, while I, as a Christian, do not support the gay lifestyle, I would definitely deem you a second class citizen....just like me & any other human!

penumbra

posted by factfinder 1. Religion in general, and Christianity in particular, has a long and colorful history of violence against non-believers (slaughter of the Baltic pagans, the Crusades, etc, etc)

2. The non-profit status of religious institutions most often results in a loss of funds needed for public services, inherently discriminating against non-believers.

3. Religion has too often attempted to hinder the advancement of science, to the detriment of mankind as a whole.

factfinder

--You earlier claimed that non-theists would argue ethics even if Christianity didn't exist. Where do you think this would come from?--

Do you know any pro-lifers that aren't Christians? I do.

Do you know any anti-capital punishpment protesters
who aren't Christian? I do.

As a Christian, I believe that all righteous things come from God. He is not particular to believers or non-believers. I believe that God works in the lives of everyone to varying degrees. I believe that God has made great men out of non-believers (the Bible is full of these stories-Nebuchadnezzar for example).

Does this answer your question?

King Rat

There you go brother, hallelujah! Just like Daniel in the lions den!

braces_for_impact

Man can I call it or what?

The prophecies according to braces_for_impact...available soon at fine bookstores everywhere.

Hopeful Monsters

[Sorry, off topic] This is quite a claim to make for this site! But amazing if true.

Godless Sodomite

I'm sure you realize by now that my views about why people turn to religion could charitably be called grim. That smart theists can compartmentalize their brains is something I don't understand. I can't guess why they do that.

I don't claim to be a completely rational thinker at all times. But I do consider myself a rational person who realizes that thoughts and emotions are products of the brain and sometimes thinking goes wrong. When people point out where my thinking goes off track, I can then examine myself and perhaps agree that I erred in my thinking. I can't imagine holding a group of thoughts "sacred" and beyond critical thinking; I don't understand why some people do.

-Jerry