lpetrich

River:
I understand that many want to verify G-d . There is only 3 logical ways of Proving G-d's existence.

1) The Universe and Cosmos. Unfortunately pointing at what may be the Obvious , no longer appears obvious after Neo-Darwinian Propaganda.

Except that that was NOT obvious to many people in past centuries. Why did people ever believe in religions other than Islam? Or no religion at all in some cases?

2) The Quran. This is the Uncreated Word of G-d and is the only religious text that has remained unchanged for 1400 years. But Unfortunately. You do not want this proof either....okay next.

Tell that to those who make the same kind of claim about the Bible.

3) The Messiah. Jesus Christ is said to be the Created Word of G-d. He is called both the Sign , the Messiah, and The Word of G-d in the Quran. Only one problem I can not present you this proof. His 2nd coming in Damascus, Syria is Imminent, but still there is a few years left.

And he was really a proto-Muslim, right? Someone who had never died for anyone's sins because he had never died on the cross, right?

River

THE SPHERICAL SHAPE OF THE EARTH

In early times, people believed that the earth is flat. For centuries, men were afraid to venture out too far, lest they should fall off the edge. Sir Francis Drake was the first person who proved that the earth is spherical when he sailed around it in 1597.
Consider the following Qur'anic verse regarding the alternation of day and night:


"Seest thou not that Allah merges Night into Day
And He merges Day into Night?
[AI-Qur'an 31:29]

Merging here means that the night slowly and gradually changes to day and vice versa. This phenomenon can only take place if the earth is spherical. If the earth was flat, there would have been a sudden change from night to day and from day to night.

The following verse also alludes to the spherical shape of the earth:


"He created the heavens And the earth In true (proportions):
He makes the Night Overlap the Day, and the Day Overlap the Night."
[AI-Qur'an 39:5]

The Arabic word used here is Kawwara meaning 'to overlap' or 'to coil'- the way a turban is wound around the head. The overlapping or coiling of the day and night can only take place if the earth is spherical.

The earth is not exactly round like a ball, but geo-spherical i.e. it is flattened at the poles. The following verse contains a description of the earth's shape:


"And the earth, moreover, Hath He made egg shaped."
[AI-Qur'an 79:30]

The Arabic word for egg here is dahaha1 which means an ostrich-egg. The shape of an ostrich-egg resembles the geo-spherical shape of the earth.

Thus the Qur'an correctly describes the shape of the earth, though the prevalent notion when the Qur'an was revealed was that the earth is flat.

http://www.iberr.co.za/sciences.htm This link has more details on this topic as well as other astronomical fields.

River

"Side effect of big Brains"? You scientists sum up Millions of years of Evolution in one line. Ironic.

As an earlier poster, Bumble Bee pointed out I used the all-comprehensive terminology of the word "muslim" and not more specifically, "Muslim"

Allah is the arabic name of God. If you consider G-d fiction , whats the point in even arguing?

River

---------------3)River: exactly , atleast from an Islamic or Gnostic point of view.

haverbob

Okay, so it seems you are saying you feel that you need Allah. And you answered the question in an elegent way. You are thoughtful and since you are, then I would like to provide one more thought.

Based on what you said, you have made it impossible for you to TRULY and COMPLETELY love Allah, as you may think you do (or maybe Islam tells you that you do). It is a commonly held notion that one cannot fully love anything or anybody (let alone Allah) if they also need that thing or person (or God). If they do, their love is destined to be either partially or completely due to the fact that they are really loving the fulfillment of their needs, and not the thing, person (or God) itself. This translates into love of one's self and not much more (if any more).

It's understandable that people would do this. But could you imagine never realizing this and then going in front of Allah looking for your peice of the pie that you earned, your reward for your sacrifices, when all that you did was essentially love yourself in your sacrifices? Maybe he would have mercy and still give you a smaller peice of the pie or maybe he would give you the whole pie itself, a "humble pie" in the face like a Three Stooges episode. Who knows.

I never understood how people make "deals" (sacrifices) with a timeless entity. An entity that represents the most unfathonable concept know to the human race, the concept of no beginning or origin. I scratch your back you scratch mine". Is that how it works? Maybe God doesn't understand the concept of deals but if he does, it's surely because he watched us create the concept.

TiredJim

Looks like a contradiction to me...

haverbob

TiredJim seems to want to discuss the scientific validity of the Quran with you. I would like to jump in on this as well if I may (I'll leave that NEEDS notion to you for right now).

Here is a question that I can never seem to get an answer to. I think perhaps you can answer me because of your Science background. Knowing what shooting stars REALLY are, how do you reconcile this with the Quran's account of the relationship between them and the Jinn trying to eavesdrop on Heaven?

If you answer this convincingly, you will have performed a major feat that I have yet to see any Muslim do in my conversations with them. And I will actually thank you (assuming it makes sense).

reddhedd

Seems to me (although I know little of the Q'uran) that if in fact, it is a book of science, then the god that wrote (inspired, whatever) it would provide evidence of his existence that would respond to scientific examination.
I have found no evidence to suggest that there is an IPU; does that mean that my mind is too small to grasp her existence, or that I have not interpreted a certain book correctly? Perhaps my faith is just too weak, and I need a good flogging, prayer session, stint in jail, or whatever.
If god wants us to be certain of his existence and his desires for us, then it behooves him to make things clearer for us lesser beings down here. Either he can't, in which case maybe I'm not actually 'lesser", or he won't, in which case, IMO, he is the "lesser' being.

Just my 25¢,
K.

haverbob

What about if he already did and we stuck a mask on it without being aware of the fact that we did? No argument, just offering a different way to see it.

River

The concept of " spreading out" does not necessarily connote flat ness. For example can you spread butter on corn? sure you can.

Secondly the majority of verses in the Holy Quran in which the words " Spreading out" is used ......are used for a time immediately before Judgement Day. Many Scholars and Physicists believe that the Quran mentions that the Universe will Contract and the Earth will Implode. Look at the following Quranic verses.

Chapter: 21, Verse: 104
"The day" when, We shall roll up the heavens as a recorder rolls up a written scroll.
As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it.

Chapter: 82, Verse: 19
A day when no soul has power at all
Over any other soul, The absolute command on that day is Allah's


Chapter: 69, Verses: 13 & 14
When the trumpet is blown one blast
The earth with the mountains
Shall be lifted and crushed with one crash

Chapter 70: verse 8
When the sky will be like molten copper
And the hills will be like flakes of wool

Chapter: 84, Verses: 3 & 4
And when the earth is spread out
And casts out all that was in her and is "Empty."


As you can see . G-d can change the Laws of Physics and nothing is truly stationary.

- I advise you, and most all.....that before trying to look for contradictions ...it would be most wise, most prudent to actually study the text for a few years before jumping to conclusions-River