River

-Mollymac

That was a sly...but simultaneously ignorant comment...First of all the 4 wives verses was revealed as an exception to the rule...for example when the male to female ratio is disturbed during times of war. There are many third world countries where women , unfortunately do not work. They are fully dependent on the income of their husbands. So if there is a war proceeding and many males are killed off..it would be economically productive for polygamy. This is even backed by anthropologists. This verse was also reserved for times when there is a drastic change in male to female ratio in certain regions for centuries to come.

Secondly, very few people quote the verse that follows it...It says that if the male can not love or treat the wives equally ...then it is forbidden. Thus , it is better for males to practice Monogamy...unless they want to risk sinning or unless unusual circumstances force them to otherwise.

-Magus 55.
Yes Magus the Bible is Divine

-Ipetrich

There are female imams and muslim clergywomen in many parts of South Asia. And there has been some leading and influential female Sufi Muslim authorities in the past.

River

I hope y'all arent stating that males and females are biologically equivalent. The nature v.s nurture argument can only go so far....I hope you understand that males and females are not the same....if not I suggest reading some articles by scientists and psychologists.

Kosmo

Um, I hardly think that questioning gender-roles outlined in a text(s) written ages ago suggests that men and women are biologically equivalent.

I think many scientists and psychologists would agree with me.

River

true dat'kid

Athius

I don't recall that, as far as I know we were taught that human race began with Adam and Eve who were direct creation of god.

Quote:

I am not quite sure why logic should lead you away from Islam.

Well I can't write my reason in one sentence, or one paragraph, or even one page, it would probably fill up page after page of why religion, god, and creationism is just false, self-contradictory, unreasonable, unworkable, and unjust. If you want me to give you some reasons why I left Islam and religion in general, I'll tell you.

First of all if god is omnipotent, omniscient, and omniwhatever why would he create life and our world in the first place? I just don't see how that could work. God could not have been bored because god never gets bored, god did not need people to serve him because he is omnipotent, so why would he even start the world in the first place? The only answer I got from many peolpe I have discussed religion with is that "That's part of god's plans, we just don't know", well if god wants to hide such important issues from me, then I can't fully know him and thus I can't worship someone I do not completely know. Even if we pass that question and start when life was formed, why the hell would god create such a disgusting world for us? If he is all powerfull why did he create a system where you must kill and destroy just to survive, why must there be so much cruelty, pain, and suffering just in nature. What is the purpose of heaven and hell? What is god trying to prove? Why would he create humans and ask them to do something to go to heaven or if they fail be sentenced to eternal torture (which is cruel and unusual punishment that even we inferior humans have come to the conclusion that it is wrong), what is the purpose of all this? Why is god doing this? Seems like god is some sick psycho who gives humans an ordeal and eternally torture the ones who fail it which is ridiculous to me. Another thing, why have millions of peolpe been born without ever hearing about god and religion? If god puts humans at a test, why doesn't he at least let everyone know about the test. Doesn't make sense to me. I can mention the infinite number of unjustices and crimes against humanity that have occured but I know what your answer will be, "That's not god's fault, that's Adam and Eve's fault who ate the apple and started a sinful and corrupted race". Well you know what? Why should billions of people be punished just because two assholes couldn't stop themselves from eating an apple? By far, the most important reason why I left is Evolution. Darwin hit religion right in the heart, and it will only be a matter of years before religion bleeds to death. There is no way you can fit Evolution in with the story of Adam and Eve, and guess what: Evidences for Adam and Eve story = NONE, evidences for Evolution = billions. Another thing how many times in history has religion been proven wrong by science over and over and they quietly swept it under the rug? Can you tell me just why was Galaleo sentenced to death by the Church at the time? Just to mention an example from Islam, the Quran says in many parts to respect the lives of animals and treat them humanely and yet Allah has asked tens of thousands of animals to be sacrificed for him every year during the "Eid-ul-Fitr". Why? Why the f*** does god need so much bloodshed to be poured for him? You know how I see this BARBARIC custom? It's a way Muslims celebrate and remember Abraham and his son who was almost sacrificed. The celebration is done by mass slaughter. How does that work? I just don't see Mass slaughter go anywhere with celebration, can you? Do you know because of this barbaric custom the specie of sheep is almost extinct in Saudi Arabia? They have to be imported. Another issue which is related to women is why did god create two sexes? And why was one created so much inferior in power and abilities to the other? Couldn't he have made all living things or at least humans asexual organisms? Perhaps we could have reproduced by budding? Why must there be women so that they would be harrassed so much in history? Why are all of the references to wars, animals, regions, etc. match the exact technologies, animals, and geographies of the middle east? Why is there a whole 'Chapter' in the Quran just on Sheep? Why are there so many references to swords and bows, why not guns or just "weapons" so it would be relevent to people in all time periods. Why are there no mentioning of Dinausours or any other living things before our time? Why didn't god explain such an important issue? What is this whole deal with 6 day creation? Why does god allow his teachings to be so corrupted by dictators and Corrupted regimes all around the world which alienates the peolpe who get the wrong impression of god and religion? This is another example of why god doesn't at least let everyone know of the same basic things and let them choose from there. Why are there so many different religions? Each claiming to be the right one, each claiming that their prophet was the true god sent? Now this is getting too long, and I already mentioned most of the important ones, but I could almost go for hours and hours and just write down things that come to my mind, but you get the idea. Now can you see how I used logic to realize religion is nothing but B.S. made up by people of the time for their own purposes and reasons?

hinduwoman

UCE, the link I provided was a Christian one, but they have given the references. All you have to do is to open the books and see the writings for yourself.

All 4 schools of Islamic jurisprudence are unanimous about the inferior status of women. That is precesly why in Islam women have been treated so badly and is still being treated badly.

Have you read the Koran yourself, in Arabic or otherwise? It plainly states that man shall have authority over owmen, because Allah has made the male superior.

River

-UCE

although ..I do see where your coming from....I have a feeling most of reasons why you see G-d as not existing stems from you seeing the world as a cold cruel place....but keep in mind that all the evil in the world does not come from G-d. It is man's doing. However, that is just an experimental part in human history. The era of G-d will surely replace the era of G-d.

I think you are Mistaking the Adam and Eve story of the Bible with the Quranic narrative...there is a whole bunch of subtle differences that throw the whole logic in a diff direction.

Keep in mind the Quran did say that life originated from water.

The Muslim day of sacrifice takes place once a year and a third goes to the poor.....i am sure you have seen the Mcdonalds over One billion served sign that is displayed every day year in ..and out.....

River

-Hinduwomen

I am not going to even talk about how Hinduism (or any other religion for that matter) views women. It would not be noble of me to stoop to your level......

Athius

You answered me exactly the way I said you would, just like most other people who believe in god. Your response is a very general, and vague answer to so many questions that I asked. Try to see whether you can answer them all to your best ability with the knowledge you have and you will see you will have a hard time answering most if not all of them, which means you yourself are a blind believer. Your belief is only worthy if you can counter all counter-arguments to your belief. Also you say this is only an experimental part in human history, well that's if your have already accepted creationism, god, and all of religion. But we're still debating the existance of it all, if I don't believe in god, then what you said has no meaning to me, so at least focus on that first.

Quote:

I think you are Mistaking the Adam and Eve story of the Bible with the Quranic narrative...there is a whole bunch of subtle differences that throw the whole logic in a diff direction. Keep in mind the Quran did say that life originated from water.

This I can't say much about, because I never really read all of Quran, but as long as I remember the story of Adam and Eve was what we were taught in our schools as the beginning of human race, Adam is considered as the first prophet to Muslims, that I'm sure of.

Quote:

The Muslim day of sacrifice takes place once a year and a third goes to the poor.....i am sure you have seen the Mcdonalds over One billion served sign that is displayed every day year in ..and out.....

Yes and in one day hundreds of thousands of sheeps, camels, and cows are slaughtered, does all of it go to the poor? No, most of it is eaten by people who can afford to eat something else or just wasted away, but that's not the point, my point is why would such a benevolent god ask for mass slaughter to represent a celebration remembering him? And McDonalds doesn't require all Christians to kill an innocent animal in their house in front of their children once every year resulting in near extinction of the specie from the region. At least they keep the killings in slaughter houses away from the eyes of the public, in Muslim countires this barbaric tradition is done mostly in people's houses (in their backyards or something) and a lot of times children view the horror of a guy coming in with a butcher knife tieing the feet of the sheep, and slowly cuting his neck while watching the sheep struggle in pain and suffer to death soaked in his own blood, the horrific scenes from those days of "celebration" still scares me to this day. But don't make this a big issue, this is not the main reason why I left Islam, I have already mentioned the real big issues in my previous post. This specific example is to show one reason why I called Islam Barbaric.

Have you read the Koran? If so, then (as I have already asked you) please tell me exactly where you read this, you didn't tell me that. I can never really just take your word for it.

hinduwoman

It is a freqeunt propaganda that in Arabia women were treated like animals and Islam elevated woman's position. OK, let us look at this:

Khadijah inherited her husband's property;
She was head of her own business;
Muahmmad, a male, was her salaried servant as were other arabian males.
Does this show that Pre-Islamic Arabia treated women like cattle only? What property rights could Muahmmad grant to his pagan wife that she did not enjoy already? In fact where are muslim businesswomen after arabia became Islamic?

Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 648:
Then 'Umar went on relating the narration and said. "I and an Ansari neighbor of mine from Bani Umaiya bin Zaid who used to live in 'Awali Al-Medina, used to visit the Prophet in turns. He used to go one day, and I another day. When I went I would bring him the news of what had happened that day regarding the instructions and orders and when he went, he used to do the same for me. We, the people of quraish, used to have authority over women, but when we came to live with the ansar, we noticed that the ansari women had the upper hand over their men, so our women started acquiring the habits of the ansari women. Once i shouted at my wife and she paid me back in my coin and i disliked that she should answer me back.She said, 'Why do you take it ill that I retort upon you? By Allah, the wives of the Prophet retort upon him, and some of them may not speak with him for the whole day till night.' What she said scared me and I said to her, 'Whoever amongst them does so, will be a great loser.' …
Guess what happened when Ansari became Muslims! it was Muhammamd's tribe the Quarish who seemed to have specialized in oppressing women more than other Arab tribes, and as Islam spread it became the norm, because Muhammad couldnot conceive of treating women in any other way.

UCE, If you are a Hadith denier, I suggest you say this in an Islamic state and see what happens to you. To say Hadiths are false is the equivalent of questioning Quran's legitimacy, because they provide the contexts of the verses revealed in Koran and explain their meaning. That is why Hadiths are the basis of Shariah. Hadiths are filled with Mohammed's contempt for women and belief they are created to be chattels for men.

When you look at the Quran itself the position is no better. You will find that this assertion of men and women being equal socially and politically is false:

Q.4:34
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
Does permission by allah to beat women elevate their status, particularly when nowhere is the woman given permission to beat her husband?

Q.2:228 “they have rights similar to those against them in a just
manner, and the men are a degree above them, and Allah is Mighty, Wise.
This has been said to promise equality, but in reality, it unambigiously proclaims men are superior to women.

[4.11] Allah enjoins you concerning your children: The male shall have the equal
of the portion of two females; … and if there is one, she shall have the half
why? That is why even when a daughter is the only child she gets to inherit only half her father's property; or a sister the only heir, she gets half. The rest goes to the nearest male relative. Very weird equality.

Even in Paradise men gets lots of goodies while all women get is to enter the Garden with their husbands.


and what about the shit about Allah allowing men to rape their slavegirls:
“Also (forbidden are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess. Thus has Allah ordained for you.” Surah 4:24,25..

It is not lawful for you (to marry other) women after this, nor to change them for other wives even though their beauty attracts you, except those whom your right hand possesses . And Allah is Ever a Watcher over all things.” Surah 33:52.

“[Succesful are the Believers] Who guard their private parts / Except from their wives or that their right hands possess,--for then, they are free from blame;” Surah 23:5,6.; 70:29,30.


[33.50] O Prophet! surely We have made lawful to you your wives whom you have given their dowries, and those whom your right hand possesses out of those whom Allah has given to you as prisoners of war, … and a believing woman if she gave herself to the Prophet, if the Prophet desired to marry her-- specially for you, not for the (rest of) believers; We know what We have ordained for them concerning their wives and those whom their right hands
possess in order that no blame may attach to you; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[33.51] You may put off whom you please of them, and you may take to you whom you please, and whom you desire of those whom you had separated provisionally; no blame attaches to you; this is most proper, so that their eyes may be cool and they may not grieve, and that they should be pleased, all of them with what you give them, and Allah knows what is in your hearts; and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.
[33.52] It is not allowed to you to take women afterwards, nor that you should change them for other wives, though their beauty be pleasing to you, except what your right hand possesses and Allah is Watchful over all things. (however the last is taken to refer to all Muslim generally).

So here women are according to Allah and his Book nothing more than animals to be abused whever their male masters please. Notice, even in abuse, Allah is not an equal opportunity abuser --- free women don't have such rights over their male slaves.
The only positive thing Muhammad did was to stop the killing of female infants out of fear of poverty.

If you read the Koran, you will find that Allah spends a disproportionate amount of time worrying over Muahmmad's sex life. And believe me you don't want to start me on Muhmmad's relationships with his wives and concubines.

Think about it, River and UCE. Where are the women muslim scholars, religious leaders, warriors, queens from the beginning of Islam? They are nowhere because the role models held up to muslim women are that of 'Mothers of Muslims' whose only qualification is that they were muhammad's wives! The ideal Muslim woman is Aiyesha, because she was the Prophet's favourite sexual partner.
The only Islamic queen I know is Sultan Razia in India, but within five years she was deposed because it contravened allah's ruling of men being above women.
That is why feminist readings of Koran and Islamic law will always fail --- in a closed religious sytem which is held to be immutable and perfect, there is simply no leeway.