Glory

My point is that you have to look at the reality of the situation. Countless atrocities have been commited as a direct result of Christian beliefs. If I build a tower that falls, how does it matter that I believe the structure to be sound? It fell bcause it was not sound and what I believed had no bearing on it at all. You can believe what ever you choose about Christianity's core. It does not change the actual effects of Christian beliefs which have been disastrous. I can't help but note your and every other christian's refusal to accept the responsibility for those tragedies by the way. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and acts like duck a christian will call it dolphin.

Glory

Starboy

Glory,

I agree, not to do so would be to accept the statement "Do as I say not as I do." If Chrisitianity is to have any place in the world it will be because it actually brings about the things it claims.

Starboy

GunnerJ

...and proclaimed that you reached the conclusion that "[the anecdotes] demonstrate that happiness and family stability are correlated with following Christ. In other words, the wisdom of the Bible has a psychological effect on its adherents that extends into the real world in a practical, tangible way."

In order for us to take this claim seriously, we must have a little more than the vague anecdotes you offered.

I don't recall anyone claiming that it does. However, our arguments have effectively rendered your conclusions from your experiences invalid.

Unsupported assertion.

:: Scratches head:: Huh? what's the signifigance of this?

It reads to me like someone desperately trying to convince us that he's legit to me. But the rest of the gosepls read like pure legend.

Well, ideally, a chain of valid argumentation backed up by objectively verifiable evidence would be ideal for supporting any of your positive claims.

I'm "here" on this board because I enjoy debate with those of opposing viewpoints and discussion with those who share my own opinions. I'm participating on this thread to answer your questions. In a general sense, I suppose that throughout my life I am searching for some kind of "truth," but I am open to all posibilites about what this "truth" might be.

Or, a guy who wanted to make us believe that that was his goal. we have only his word for it that he is so open minded.

If I wrote a book on how the center of the Earth is populated by sentient garden gnomes, and gave it a similar preface as G. Luke, would you believe it?

What about the leader of Heaven's Gate? he killed himself too. Did he "die for a lie?"

Again, unevidenced assertion.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Rimstalker ]</p>

Shadowy Man

Glory:

But his point was that you shouldn't blame the blueprints if the tower was built unsound. Remember: In theory, theory and practice are the same; in practice, they're not.

Liquidrage

Yes, but in this case we don't have a blueprint.
What we have is a drawing of a tower. The drawing is too vague to create a blueprint from. People have tried but no two people create the same blue print. Some of the blue prints are not buildable. Many are not stable. Some seem ok though in these cases they clearly don't produce the building seen in the picture. There is no denying that some people are rather pleased at the concept of the building seen in the picture. But as of yet no one has ever seen the actual building. Oh sure, some claim to have seen it. But they can't show it to you.

Shadowy Man

I guess that is what happens when the blueprint is written up by some people, then modified by others, then handed down to some other people, then reinterpreted by management, then sits on a shelf, is revisited, added to, corrected, edited, etc. etc.

Liquidrage

Breeze,

You claim that because Luke has passages that are written in the first person perspective that they are indeed first hand.

I do not agree with that assertion.

Clearly, anyone is capable of writing down on a piecer of paper, "I saw Jesus die myself" or the like.

But what evidence is there that supports Luke being a 1st hand account? What evidence is there that Luke is not only 1st hand but it is true?

Luke could be 1st hand and not true. Luke could be the writings of an oral tradition presented with some 1st person narrative and true or not true. Or Luke could be the 1st hand account of an actual event.

I ask that you provide me some evidence that Luke is genuine. That it is a 1st hand account and that the acts as told are genuine.

I also invite you to throughly read
<a href="http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/luke.html" target="_blank">http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/luke.html</a>
and the referenced documents and sites.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Liquidrage ]</p>

Neo

<a href="http://members.aol.com/bbu84/biblicalstupidity/home.htm" target="_blank">Christianity: Bogus Beyond Belief</a>

This site was created and is maintained by a former Christian. It's a really well thought out and carefully crafted site with tons of information and links to other valid sources to review. The author also loves a good debate too and can most certainly hold his own.

If you are really interested in this question, "Why Atheism? Why not Christianity?" I highly suggest you check it out!

Neo

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Neo ]</p>

Glory

Blueprints can be flawed. In fact, the Bible is a pronounced example of a flawed blueprint. Hence the world is littered with the debris of fallen spiritual towers based on the Bible.

Now an engineer should realize that when your blueprint is flawed the thing to do is make a new blueprint. Christians are trying to adjust the world to fit their flawed blueprint rather than admit that it is faulty.

Glory

I wish I could think of something clever to say about Fawlty Towers but I can't. Help me out here people.

[ October 09, 2002: Message edited by: Glory ]</p>

MadMordigan

'I saw Elvis at the grocery store last night.'

Obviously the plain reading of a first person testimony is not always the truth. In many cases we have to evaluate the statements made based on their own plausibility. Some statements are so patently absurd we can discard them outright. For example, the claim that I went grocery shopping.