Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CALDONIA · 03-17-2003, 04:39 PM

Prayer is the funniest part of religion. What is going on, is the God who knows all that ever was, and is, and ever will be, need a mental cattle prod? By millions of people at once? If you accept events in life as "God's will," is it not profound arrogance to send him petitions against what He may have already planned?

If you believe in God, accept death by hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, as manifstations of His will. By Christian faith, all these victims deserve their fate because Eve took a bite out of an apple due to a talking snake who victimized beings that were deliberatey created by a Perfect God to act and become imperfect.

beastmaster · 03-17-2003, 07:08 PM

Christ-on-a-Stick. This is God speaking. Please empty your fucking PM box or we shall smite thee.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-17-2003, 07:22 PM

GAH!!!! Sorry beast, I mean God(s?) - your wish is my command!

luvluv...

Quote:

As to being a clear contradiction of scripture, I am always of the opinon that scripture must be consider in light of other scripture. As I said before, Paul explicitly gave warning that selfish prayers prayed "after the flesh" would not be answered.

Hmmm... when is a contradiction not a contradiction? When to admit it's a contradiction would be to have to admit it's a contradiction!

I'm going to be obstinate here (bet that shocks you, eh?

) and reiterate:

Quote:

Matthew 21:22 And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

Those are the words of Jesus himself. Do they carry less weight than Paul's?
Are Jesus' words in this verse true or NOT TRUE? Seems to me that if there were any if/ands/buts about it (except for prayers "after the flesh" yadda yadda) Jesus would have said so himself instead of waiting for Paul to do his talking for him.

Shake · 03-18-2003, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Mageth
I think your mistake is in assuming that the primary role of prayer is getting God to give you what you want. One of the more fundamental roles of prayer is to get you to be dependant upon God and to get you to accept His will over yours.

I really don't see much of a difference. Your version has you praying so that you'll accept or at least understand what happens to you as god's will. You're back to the problem that what happens to you happens whether you pray to accept it as his will or not.

Right! You're still trying to get something out of the prayer.

Caldonia, nice quote there! (from Paine)

COAS, have you ever heard the George Carlin bit about prayer? He says he prays to Joe Pesci, saying that he gets about the same results as if he had prayed to god instead.

Gotta love Carlin! :notworthy

luvluv · 03-18-2003, 06:03 PM

Quote:

So if I had this same understanding without "God's" help, why does one have to pray to obtain it?

I quit praying 25 (or more) years ago. My life has had both good and bad, but I've been comfortable with the results understanding the parts I could possibly control. Knowledge has been useful in my decision-making and acceptance of outcomes.

It wasn't necessary for you, but it was necessary for me. I achieved this understanding through a relationship with God and through prayer. So in terms of changing the person praying, prayer works. In my opinion that is the PRIMARY function of prayer.

I'm glad your life has worked out since you stopped praying. Is it as good as it could be? Who knows?

Are you SURE there isn't a God? And if there is, could you possibly be as succesful as a human being by not communicating with Him as you could be if you did?

Treacle Worshipper:

Quote:

luvluv, I find this interesting, 'cos I had almost the reverse experience. I am able to acknowledge my intrinsic worth as a person far more easily now than when I was in the church. I am not constantly being told that I am a wretched sinner and must repent for my smallest thoughts. It's hard to have a positive self-image when people keep telling you you're bad and you can't do anything good, because any good you do is God working through you, and not you. Now my good is mine as well as my bad, and I'm much happier

Sorry about your bad church experiences. Perhaps, though, it is not that God does not exist but that your church had the wrong CONCEPT of God? I wish your church had read you the Prodigal Son story more, or the stories about the lost coin and the lost sheep. This exemplifies God's attitude about us more than anything else. Original sin and total depravity are man-made ideals. Why not make your own search for God instead of assuming, since a bad case was made for Him by the members of your childhood church, that He must not exist?

Mr. Darwin:

Quote:

I really have to wonder, what point is there to praying at all if the outcome is God's will alone?

Well, as I said, the point is to bring you closer to God's perspective and bringing you closer to Him. In Christianity, the relationship with God is paramount. Asking why pray if it isn't going to change the outcome is like saying why talk to your spouse about your problems at work? It's not going to change anything. Why talk to your friends about your relationship problems? It's not going to change anything.

Hey, why talk to anyone? It never makes anything different, does it?

Quote:

Luvluv, you continue to raise ideas that I don't see coming from other Christians who visit here.

And?

Quote:

The idea that life does indeed have meaning and purpose in and of itself, which I think is implicit in atheism, is often attacked by people who call themselves Christians.

I didn't go into sufficient detail I guess. What I understood by believing was that all human beings are of equal value because of the love of God. That simply in having the marvelous priviledge of being a human being, I was ahead of the game. I am as worthy as a person as everyone else because I am as valued by the King of the universe as is every other person in the world.

I didn't mean that life in general is valuable in and of itself, but that my life, my unique experiences, were valuable without the adornments of success.

Lauri:

Quote:

Those are the words of Jesus himself. Do they carry less weight than Paul's?

No, I think they carry equal weight but Paul's words were meant as qualifiers on the words of Jesus. Again, I think ALL SCRIPTURE, including that which is attributed to Jesus, must be weighed in the light of other scripture. That's just a common rule for Biblical interpretation. What you are attempting is what we call "proof texting", taking one quote out of context and giving it supremacy over all other quotes. I happen to believe that just about everything accredited to Jesus in the scriptures was actually said by Jesus (I don't believe that about anyone else in the Bible) but even so I don't know that in any given situation the gospel writer was giving the full context of what Jesus was saying. I don't assume that is the case.

If you, Lauri, are a Biblical Literalist, then your interpretation makes sense. I am not one, so I am careful to make sure I get all the information I can from many sources about what a particular text is really trying to communicate.

openeyes · 03-18-2003, 07:42 PM

luvluv asked:

Quote:

I'm glad your life has worked out since you stopped praying. Is it as good as it could be? Who knows?

Quote:

Are you SURE there isn't a God? And if there is, could you possibly be as succesful as a human being by not communicating with Him as you could be if you did?

I'm quite sure that praying wouldn't have made a difference. If anything, it would have slowed down my acceptance of the things that didn't turn out, but that I couldn't have changed.

I also think that it is much more direct and useful to find answers to one's problems by information obtained in the natural world, either by consultation with others or through studies that others have done and published. This information, along with my own reflection, has served me well to this point.

I'm sure enough that there is no god that I'm not afraid to live my life as if he/she doesn't exist. After successful living after this many years, I couldn't do it any other way. Time has only reinforced the notion that struck me at 17 that the world makes much more sense without trying to imagine that there's a god running the show.

Debbie T · 03-18-2003, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lamma
Even as an atheist, I understand why people pray. It's cathartic. It can give one a feeling of control in a situation they have no control over, it can relieve guilt, it can clear the mind, etc.
It's just another form of meditation. While obviously it doesn't physically affect outside events, it can positively affect the mental health of the person praying.
Putting someone on the defensive for praying will inevitably result in their retreating further into their irrational beliefs. Personally I think the pray-er wins the argument by saying. "it just makes me feel better, now leave me alone".

I understand too and as one that meditates almost everyday I can vouch for the help it gives in keeping me healthy and positive.

But I know Christians who say meditation is of the devil. So I should say leave me alone, it just makes me feel better.

Scottyman · 03-19-2003, 04:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by luvluv
I think your mistake is in assuming that the primary role of prayer is getting God to give you what you want. One of the more fundamental roles of prayer is to get you to be dependant upon God and to get you to accept His will over yours.

Which is exactly the same thing that the liquor and cigarette manufacturers want of us as well, but we teach our children the converse!

Treacle Worshipper · 03-19-2003, 11:14 AM

Originally posted by luvluv
Treacle Worshipper:
Sorry about your bad church experiences. Perhaps, though, it is not that God does not exist but that your church had the wrong CONCEPT of God? I wish your church had read you the Prodigal Son story more, or the stories about the lost coin and the lost sheep. This exemplifies God's attitude about us more than anything else. Original sin and total depravity are man-made ideals. Why not make your own search for God instead of assuming, since a bad case was made for Him by the members of your childhood church, that He must not exist?
I'm afraid you're assuming a bit too much here. These things were not taught by my "childhood church", but by a church I began attending as a young adult who had been well grounded in the Xian faith by her childhood church, including the Prodigal son, etc. Some of this 2nd church's more... extreme... views were what caused me to rethink my entire belief system, including the less harmless parts of it. And I did make my own search for god, both within and outside the church.
I am an "agnostic atheist", if you want to put a label on it: there may be god(s) out there somewhere, but I sure as hell don't believe in any of the ones I've heard about so far.

The opposite of total depravity is what you wrote here:
I am as worthy as a person as everyone else because I am as valued by the King of the universe as is every other person in the world.
You are basing your worth on how god sees you, not on your intrinsic self. What self-worth I had when I was in the 2nd church was very much based on how god saw me, which was excellent, he loved me, I was his precious child. But I knew there were certain things about me that I couldn't change and that god very much disliked

(I know this wasn't addressed to me.)
why talk to anyone? It never makes anything different, does it?
Actually it does, because other people can look at a situation more objectively than you can, or may have information that you do not that will help you. God is not usually so kind as to say, "There's this organisation, and here's their phone no., and they can help you if you're being harrassed at work/beaten by your spouse, etc, etc."
TW

CALDONIA · 03-19-2003, 04:30 PM

Shake,

Yes, the Paine quote is rather profound. But my rendition involved some grammatical/quotation errors due to the combination of too much wine while lurking (is that a sin?).

I am much amused by the feud that involves prayer in general; the idea that one can pray one one's own outside of church or any earthly domain, opposed to the belief that prayer must be institutionalized in schools. It seems that religious people are confessing their incompetance when they insist that God be put in the classroom.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

03-17-2003, 04:39 PM	#21
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	Prayer is the funniest part of religion. What is going on, is the God who knows all that ever was, and is, and ever will be, need a mental cattle prod? By millions of people at once? If you accept events in life as "God's will," is it not profound arrogance to send him petitions against what He may have already planned? If you believe in God, accept death by hurricanes, tornadoes, earthquakes, as manifstations of His will. By Christian faith, all these victims deserve their fate because Eve took a bite out of an apple due to a talking snake who victimized beings that were deliberatey created by a Perfect God to act and become imperfect.

03-17-2003, 07:08 PM	#22
beastmaster Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Madrid / I am a: Lifelong atheist Posts: 885	Christ-on-a-Stick. This is God speaking. Please empty your fucking PM box or we shall smite thee.

03-19-2003, 11:14 AM	#29
Treacle Worshipper Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Wales, UK Posts: 931	Originally posted by luvluv Treacle Worshipper: Sorry about your bad church experiences. Perhaps, though, it is not that God does not exist but that your church had the wrong CONCEPT of God? I wish your church had read you the Prodigal Son story more, or the stories about the lost coin and the lost sheep. This exemplifies God's attitude about us more than anything else. Original sin and total depravity are man-made ideals. Why not make your own search for God instead of assuming, since a bad case was made for Him by the members of your childhood church, that He must not exist? I'm afraid you're assuming a bit too much here. These things were not taught by my "childhood church", but by a church I began attending as a young adult who had been well grounded in the Xian faith by her childhood church, including the Prodigal son, etc. Some of this 2nd church's more... extreme... views were what caused me to rethink my entire belief system, including the less harmless parts of it. And I did make my own search for god, both within and outside the church. I am an "agnostic atheist", if you want to put a label on it: there may be god(s) out there somewhere, but I sure as hell don't believe in any of the ones I've heard about so far. The opposite of total depravity is what you wrote here: I am as worthy as a person as everyone else because I am as valued by the King of the universe as is every other person in the world. You are basing your worth on how god sees you, not on your intrinsic self. What self-worth I had when I was in the 2nd church was very much based on how god saw me, which was excellent, he loved me, I was his precious child. But I knew there were certain things about me that I couldn't change and that god very much disliked (I know this wasn't addressed to me.) why talk to anyone? It never makes anything different, does it? Actually it does, because other people can look at a situation more objectively than you can, or may have information that you do not that will help you. God is not usually so kind as to say, "There's this organisation, and here's their phone no., and they can help you if you're being harrassed at work/beaten by your spouse, etc, etc." TW

03-19-2003, 04:30 PM	#30
CALDONIA Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Sunnyvale,CA Posts: 371	Shake, Yes, the Paine quote is rather profound. But my rendition involved some grammatical/quotation errors due to the combination of too much wine while lurking (is that a sin?). I am much amused by the feud that involves prayer in general; the idea that one can pray one one's own outside of church or any earthly domain, opposed to the belief that prayer must be institutionalized in schools. It seems that religious people are confessing their incompetance when they insist that God be put in the classroom.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.