Chicken Girl

That's a good point, Janaya. I never thought of it like that.

Infinity Lover

To apply an atheist perspective as well, meaning interpreting it as a metaphor.
Try to look at the practical use.

Accepting Jesus is sort of a moral contract here, so it boils down to making a commitment. With heaven and hell as moral incentives.
Someone can offer you a tool (a life's conviction/moral code), but ultimately it's still up to you to pick it up and start using it.

Whether 'the word of God' is bogus, a proper tool in some ways, or the only proper tool in any case, or how questionable the dealbreaker it presents is, is up to you to decide.

Marcel.

HelenM

The Bible says:

Hebrews 9:22b without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Which in the context is about Jesus' death. According to Biblical theology his death was necessary to pay for the sins of all who believe.

If asked, Christians would say that if had been another way to save people, God would have chosen that in preference to the death of His Son...

Yes, according to most Biblical theology, hell is forever so no-one actually perishes, neither hell or heaven dwellers. But some Christians interpret the Bible as saying that those who aren't saved are 'annihilated' instead of sent to hell forever.

"Perish" in that verse is taken to mean, doesn't have eternal life in heaven. When Christians interpret the Bible they have to take other passages into consideration which talk about hell, when they consider what 'perish' means.

Helen

Janaya

Helen,
Thanks again for responding.
I really am trying to understand this.

So if I don't believe, my sins don't need to be paid for? So Jesus didn't die for me, but for believers. That helps quite a bit actually. Thanks.

I don't mean to be disrespectful...but as a mortal human I can come up with better ways to save people. For example: Why not just appear to all of them at once and tell them what it is I want?

Doesn't that interpretation then falsify that verse? Actually, both interpretations falsify that verse.

Gosh, I'm really frustrated. Why can't God make himself clear so that people of average intelligence and education can read His Word and understand it?

Thanks,
Janaya

Infinity Lover

At the risk of being inconsiderate...

...do you want to hear the obvious reason, or one you can be at peace with?

If something doesn't make sense, there just might be a good reason for that.
You do know how many differnt holy scryptures there are? I don't, but I know it's a substantial amount.

The best I can suggest, is first familliarize yourself with what committing to a specific religion/church would imply. The pro's, the cons... how one might outweigh the other.

I'm not kidding here.

There's so many choices out there. Is there such a thing as THE answer? Or is that a desceptive lie by definition?

Plow through Helen's homesite. There's stuff in the Bible she finds a trifle iffy. The concept of Hell at the least. (and a sincere thumbs up for that!)

If you're considering commiting yourself, first find out what you'd be committing to.
When push comes to shove, you don't have to be a believer to appreciate anyone's positive efforts. Or read a book for that matter.

If all else fails...

The good in life tells you what you're doing it for. The bad in life tells you why you're doing it. And life teaches you how.

Live to honour life, live to honour love.

And take it from there.

Marcel.

I ate Pascal's Wafer

Hey Janaya. I really haven't played devil's advocate very often, but I'll try.

It sounds more like an exchange to me as well, but it could be taken as a gift to those who have faith in God. Almost like a reward, perhaps?

According to the myth, he did die for you. By accepting this and believing in him you are showing that you are accepting his gift, and you will gain eternal life in heaven.

Here's an analogy: Say you are offered an award of $1,000,000. To get this reward, all you have to do is kiss Hank's ass. The reward is available to everybody, but by not kissing Hank's ass you are basically saying that you are rejecting Hank's gift. OTOH, kissing Hank's ass is a way of saying you accept his gift.

Another analogy: you sign up for a magazine subscription. On the reply card, they have a little check box. If you check the little box they will send you a free stuffed toy. By not checking the box, you are saying that you don't accept the gift. However, by checking the box you are saying you do accept the gift. I hope this helps.

Jesus did die for you, but you have to acknowledge that he did. Putting your faith in Jesus is the way you accept his gift. I hope the analogies above clear this up some.

Your heart pumps the oxygen-enriched blood to your brain, so that your neurons can continue to function. From there, your now oxygen-empowered gullibility region in your brain causes you to ignore all that you learned in Anatomy class and think that a man that died a couple thousand years ago can live in your heart.

No prob. I have to go take another bath in acid now, but hopefully you understand where they're coming from now. If you know know what they're talking about before they tell you then you'll be in a better position to turn the argument around on them.

Of course, I swear to Cod if you become a Christian from my influence we're going to have a little chat...

Hey, you've gotta start from somewhere. Not everyone can have the wonderful opportunity of spending several years as a Christian ( ).

-Nick

Janaya

Dear everyone that has responded,

Thank you so much for your time.

I am attempting to understand the Christian viewpoint.
My eternal soul is at stake.
Let me make myself clear.
My eternal soul is at stake.
This blink of an eye lifetime (which I am currently experiencing) is nothing compared to eternity.
This universe (by some estimates) is around 15 billion years old, which is nothing compared to eternity.

Now to the crux of the matter:

Assumed: Original Sin.

1. Jesus died to redeem me to God for sin.
If he did die for me...Why is anything else required?
Analagy:
If the sun comes up tomorrow ...you are forgiven.
What difference does it make whether I believe the sun comes up or not? If it comes up then I am forgiven. If it does not then I am not forgiven. The sun comes up (or does not) whether or not I believe it will.
Nothing more is required.

2. Jesus did not die for me.
Nothing more is required (except to figure out how to atone for original sin).

Can anyone understand where I am coming from?
Or am I off in Lala Land?
Is my logic incorrect?
Or am I misinterpreting the Christian viewpoint?


Again, what difference does it make what I believe today? If Jesus died for my sins....then he died for my sins. End of story.

Thanks everyone,
Janaya

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Janaya :edited for formatting and parenthetical addition to 2.]

[ September 18, 2002: Message edited by: Janaya ]</p>

Janaya

Infinity Lover,

I'm not quite sure how to respond to you yet.
I'm still trying to digest/internalize your responses.

You can be inconsiderate if you want. I don't care. I just want answers.

I don't begrudge anyone their search for truth...whether believers or not. If they are truly searching...hoooray for them.

I am more interested in believers responses to my questions because I feel they need to justify it.
I already know most responses to my questions by non-believers. But my questions are directed to believers. I do not want to post on a pro-Christian board because I want my reason and logic to also be analyzed. I do not feel that this would happen on a Christian board.

I am honestly searching for the truth and I feel that this can only be done on a board of this nature. (i.e. a board that holds logic and reason supreme).

Anyway, just wanted to you to know that I have not ignored you.

Thanks,
Janaya

Kevin Dorner

Some Christian denominations (moreso these days because the doctrine of eternal torture has driven so many followers away) interpret damnation after final judgement as a complete nullification of existence; a soul cast into the lake of fire is obliterated, not eternally in pain.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think the JW's are one group that subscribes to this interpretation.

HelenM

Originally posted by Janaya:

So if I don't believe, my sins don't need to be paid for?

No, they do need to be, but they aren't, unless you believe.

So Jesus didn't die for me, but for believers. That helps quite a bit actually. Thanks.

Some Christians believe he only died for those who're going to believe and be saved. Else his death would be partly a failure - if he died for some people who don't believe anyway.

But other Christians are ok believing his death was sufficient that anyone could be saved but it only saves those who believe. (As opposed to it only ever being intended for the subset of humanity who will believe)

I don't mean to be disrespectful...but as a mortal human I can come up with better ways to save people. For example: Why not just appear to all of them at once and tell them what it is I want?

Well, I don't know, but the way Christians think is: if that were the best way God would have done it. Since God is perfect the way He does things must be the best way rather than your way (with all due respect )

Doesn't that interpretation then falsify that verse? Actually, both interpretations falsify that verse.

Well, I don't think so. I can't imagine that the author(s) of John's gospels intentionally contradicted the other gospels. So I think he/they were simply using words a little differently, but to convey the same concepts.

Gosh, I'm really frustrated. Why can't God make himself clear so that people of average intelligence and education can read His Word and understand it?

Christians seem to think it's clear...is it really true that it's hard to understand? Or - with all due respect - is the issue more that you don't believe it?

In the end you have a choice - to accept what Christians believe or not. If you decide it's too illogical to accept then so be it. It seems to me that you've already decided it makes no sense that Jesus' death only applies to those who believe. So I'm not sure what the purpose is of asking more questions, with all due respect. What are you hoping to gain or learn from asking more questions when you're already convinced that the basic premise of Christians doesn't make sense?

take care
Helen