echidna

Further, you seem to blame humans for whatever misery they receive.

I am familiar with Malaysia’s unjust laws as enforced by the bumiputeras & have no love for them whatsoever. You have my sincere sympathy FWIW. But you extend your generalisations to all Muslims. This is inappropriate and is every bit as bigoted as those you complain about.

Personally the behaviour you describe I attribute mainly to a likely innate tribal instinct within the human psyche. Humans tribe instinctively, by race, by religion, by socio-economic class, jeez even by football team if necessary.

The Malaysian Islamic bias and religious / ethnic persecution which you live in, is a result of what happens when “tribal” differences are strong and one “tribe” dominates either by numbers or force.

For this reason, you’ll see very similar persecution conducted by Christianity in the past as well.

Toss a coin. Why did it land heads ?

Are we so in-control of our lives that our destiny is entirely within our power ? I hardly see how.

Well all I can say is that the Malaysian Chinese whom I know would be deeply offended (putting it mildly) to hear you scoffing at and criticising the Chinese who were caught by the mobs or who were trying to protect their property. So anyone who didn’t utterly capitulate was stupid ? Similarly I’d be surprised if your opinion was so popular at home as well.

Given that you yourself didn’t live though it, I’m stunned you don’t have more consideration for those who did.

Seraphim

"Further, you seem to blame humans for whatever misery they receive. "

My reply : Yes, Humans and Humans ALONE is responsible for their own misery. It is illogical to assume that God (in case you believe in one) could cause misery for you just to test you. If a certain thing happens, it is usually cause by your deeds (in this life for those who doesn't believe in reincarnation and past lives) or actions. My opinion anyway.

"I am familiar with Malaysia’s unjust laws as enforced by the bumiputeras & have no love for them whatsoever. You have my sincere sympathy FWIW. But you extend your generalisations to all Muslims. This is inappropriate and is every bit as bigoted as those you complain about. "

My reply : Only thing I could say is that you don't know if you do not live in Malaysia. It is not the act of the government alone, it is act of Muslims in general. It is written in Al Quran that if a Muslim have something and there is two person which he could share it with (one is another Muslim and another is a Kafir), give it to the Muslim first. Which means, a Muslim will care for another Muslim first before he could even look at a Kafir.

"Personally the behaviour you describe I attribute mainly to a likely innate tribal instinct within the human psyche. Humans tribe instinctively, by race, by religion, by socio-economic class, jeez even by football team if necessary.
The Malaysian Islamic bias and religious / ethnic persecution which you live in, is a result of what happens when “tribal” differences are strong and one “tribe” dominates either by numbers or force. "

My reply : Ever heard of the word nonsense? That's how your theory sounds to me ...
There is no tribal crap, it is all the same wherever you go, whether you deal with an Arab Muslim, Afghan Muslim, Indonesian Muslim or a Malaysian Muslim. They all have the same trend of ignoring others who is not in their own religion. If you think that you will find some different (Muslim) person somewhere else, I afraid you will be dissappointed.

"For this reason, you’ll see very similar persecution conducted by Christianity in the past as well. "

My reply : Yes, and they have learn from their mistake for the past 200 years of exposure to other cultures. When Westerners started to explore other continents around 1700s, 1800s and 1900s, they went with a notion that they were better than other people because of their religion (Christianity) and their science. When are Muslims going to learn? It is already 1,400 years since they venture out of their Arabic dens.

"Toss a coin. Why did it land heads ?"

My reply : If you expecting the word "by Chance", I must say BS.

The coin spins in the air and lands on the floor. If it falls flat, it will be whatever the top is - head or tails, if it spin and hit softly, it will be the last surface it turn (whether head or tail) because it has no momentum to turn to the other side.
If it falls hard onto the floor, most likely it will bounce a few time before stopping, thus whatever side it is on when it stopped is most likely be what it is.
If it is roll on the floor, it will fall whichever way the gravity pulls it thus that will determine its side. But if it hits an object, even so the gravity pulls one way, it will fall the other.

In all this above examples, it is the coin's action and interaction with its environments which determines what its outcome will be, NOT chance alone. Maybe for someone big like a Human being, it is a mere chance of a toss of a coin.

"Are we so in-control of our lives that our destiny is entirely within our power ? I hardly see how. "

My reply : If you don't see where you are going, you have yet to understand yourself fully.

God (if you believe in one) or any primal force do not control over actions or destiny, most of things (99.9%) of whatever happens to us happens because of our actions. Find yourself, understand yourself and choose your own path properly. That will be your destiny, NOT trusting some God blindly to lead you when you don't bother leading yourself.

"There is a God.
He doesn't need to say or do anything.
Much less ASK for anything in return.
He just watches ...
watches over humans struggling with their own lives"
- From an Anime called Vandread.

"Well all I can say is that the Malaysian Chinese whom I know would be deeply offended (putting it mildly) to hear you scoffing at and criticising the Chinese who were caught by the mobs or who were trying to protect their property. So anyone who didn’t utterly capitulate was stupid ? "

My reply : They won't. You know why? Because most Malaysian Chinese are Christians and Buddhist, to them, to hate or be angry at someone/a group of people is a stupid thing indeed. Only a Muslim could be angry for stupidity which they cause themselves.

"Given that you yourself didn’t live though it, I’m stunned you don’t have more consideration for those who did. "

My reply : I didn't live through 1969 Incident because I was born a bit late (1970s). However, I did live through the mayhem of 1990s and Kampung Medan Incident in 1999. Both this incidents, even so it is not the scale of 1969 incident, effected me closely as well since both was within the area of my home.

And Yes, I did sharpen my sword (I have one at home) and left it under my bed every night for 6 months to see if anyone stupid enough to enter my home. I did not however when out to find fights and get myself killed NOR did I started to hate Muslims.

echidna

I see. So if I drive to work tomorrow and am flattened by a semi-trailer, that was either my fault for running a red light, OR because I was mean to my mother in my last incarnation ?

I suggest you read up on the anthropology of tribalism, because what you describe here is quite consistent with tribalism. I'm not quite sure which parts you don’t understand, but if you’re not familiar with the basic concepts, no matter.

BTW, I already know Muslims who do not fit you descriptions. A good Catholic friend of mine married a Muslim & they have 3 children quite happily. You should get out more.

Well, pardon me but duh. The point is, when you tossed the coin, were you responsible that it landed heads ? Could you predict the outcome ? I don’t think so, even in the simplest of systems. Such is the majority of our lives.

We make educated decisions on our lives every day. Almost always we lack the information, the knowledge and the wisdom to make a 100% guaranteed decision. Our decisions are best guesses, some work out some don’t. Sometimes we choose to act irrationally, that is we act emotionally. This constant conflict between our emotions & our logic, also forever causes us to sometimes “make mistakes” or to re-prioritise after the event.

But somehow you claim perfect control over the future such that anything bad which happens can only be your fault ?

Basically the concept of “Destiny” which you seem to be describing sounds every bit as absurd as Divine Intervention.

So by staying you took a calculated risk. Can you defend yourself with a single sword from 5 guys armed with machetes or a rifle ? I don’t think so. You weren’t attacked but you had no say in that, you were simply luckier than those who were attacked in their own houses. Do you seriously think that your survival is proof of your superior “wisdom” ? No wonder your high opinion of yourself.

Or was it because you were a good person in a past life ?

Seraphim

"I see. So if I drive to work tomorrow and am flattened by a semi-trailer, that was either my fault for running a red light, OR because I was mean to my mother in my last incarnation ?"

My reply : Most likely because you ran over a red light when you should have patience.

"I suggest you read up on the anthropology of tribalism, because what you describe here is quite consistent with tribalism. I'm not quite sure which parts you don’t understand, but if you’re not familiar with the basic concepts, no matter. "

My reply : What I know is what I see and hear EVERY day in my country - via through news, people etc. I don't need to read about terms in a book to understand that.
If all Muslims behave in such a way as considered as Tribal, then it is logical to assume that Al Quran and Islam promote unification of certain people under the same flag and pity them against their so-called enemies - in this case the Kafirs.

"BTW, I already know Muslims who do not fit you descriptions. A good Catholic friend of mine married a Muslim & they have 3 children quite happily. You should get out more. "

My reply : Ask your Catholic friend whether he or she was asked to :
1. Leave Catholic religion and take Islam.
2. Change his/her surname into Abdullah or Binti Aishah (if not mistaken).
3. That he/she cannot celebrate Christmas or any other Catholic religions' festival with his or her other family.

Then tell me if someone could be happy to lose his or her family (including the surname) and tradition which he or she grow up with.

"Well, pardon me but duh. The point is, when you tossed the coin, were you responsible that it landed heads ? Could you predict the outcome ? I don’t think so, even in the simplest of systems. Such is the majority of our lives. "

My reply : Nope, I'm not. Once it leaves my hand, the coin will "determine" its own fate by interacting with its environments - how many roles it does, strenght of impact, gravity and obstacle which it face along the way till it stops moving.

In a way, this is a perfect example of Human-God relationship. Imagine a human as a coin and God toss us. Even so we have capability to do good or do evil, God do not make that choice for us, we make it for ourselves by how we interact with others around us.

"We make educated decisions on our lives every day. Almost always we lack the information, the knowledge and the wisdom to make a 100% guaranteed decision. Our decisions are best guesses, some work out some don’t. Sometimes we choose to act irrationally, that is we act emotionally. This constant conflict between our emotions & our logic, also forever causes us to sometimes “make mistakes” or to re-prioritise after the event. "

My reply : Mistakes happen only because four factors which I could think of :

1. Our degree of understanding of ourselves and people around you.
2. Our emotions (checked or unchecked).
3. Our desires and needs.
4. X-Factor (other people's 1,2,3 together with certain factors such as the environments, etc).

"But somehow you claim perfect control over the future such that anything bad which happens can only be your fault ?"

My reply : No, I don't have perfect control over my future, because I don't know about other people and environment around me.

"Basically the concept of “Destiny” which you seem to be describing sounds every bit as absurd as Divine Intervention. "

My reply : Better (and logical) than saying "Hey! Sh!t happens".

"So by staying you took a calculated risk. Can you defend yourself with a single sword from 5 guys armed with machetes or a rifle ? I don’t think so. You weren’t attacked but you had no say in that, you were simply luckier than those who were attacked in their own houses. Do you seriously think that your survival is proof of your superior “wisdom” ? No wonder your high opinion of yourself. "

My reply : You can't find rifles in Malaysia as freely as you do in Europe, but we do have machete. And yes, I do think I could defend myself against 5 armed men. I probably will die in the process but at least I will take a few with me. At least that will put my soul at peace later.
My "survival" is simply not allowing myself to hate and going out to kill others. Stay in your own home and defend it, the chance of you winning is higher in your own home than outside. Well, in the end, it is simply an act of survival nevertheless.

"Or was it because you were a good person in a past life ? "

My reply : Nope, I was a spoilt brat who thinks I was the centre of the Universe and the world and everything else spin around me. I'm here this time to fight my own battles and prove my own existence. OR I can just drop all this ego crap and lead a more peaceful life with my own principles ... the coin already been tossed, it is still spinning and the day I die, we will see the outcome.

echidna

And yet drunk drivers kill thousands of innocent people each year. How is that the victim’s fault ?

Yes exactly. Fits the description of “tribal” pretty well don’t you think ? Tribalism is simply the innate way that might makes right. By forming coercive alliances based on spurious similarities, one can achieve stronger security and increased affluence, especially if at the expense of others.

1. No, she did not take up Islam. Her husband has no problems, some members of his family did of course, but she’s not Islamic by any stretch.
2. She keeps her maiden name. The children have his surname, but that’s common here regardless.
3. They celebrate Christmas & Easter, not particularly religiously but then again not many do here anyway.

I’d add that he’s Muslim enough to be participating in Ramadan at the moment & despite that they are both quite accepting of each other’s religious upbringings. They have been married 8 years and are moving into a new house this weekend.

You miss the point. The external factors which govern our lives are out of our control & we cannot predict them. I’m all for taking on the responsibility for our own lives, but I also accept that some things I cannot control or understand perfectly. One can do one’s best but there are no certainties or guarantees. To expect such is naïve.

Good, yes. So when something in life doesn’t go according to plan, maybe it’s a mistake OR maybe it’s 1,2,3,4. In the case of the latter, I hardly see it as the individual’s fault.

So how can it be your fault if Muslims persecute you as a Kafir ? Because you chose to be a Kafir ? I don’t see that as your fault.

What evidence do you have for the existence of predetermined fate or destiny ?

How do you know you were a spoilt brat in your last life ?

Seraphim

"And yet drunk drivers kill thousands of innocent people each year. How is that the victim’s fault ?"

My reply : Nope, it is EVERYONE's fault. Liqour been sold to everyone - Society's fault, everyone drinks, some more than others - Society's fault as well, no stricter laws for punishment other than a few years in prison - society's fault as well. This is what I considered as X-Factor in determining one's destiny.

"Yes exactly. Fits the description of “tribal” pretty well don’t you think ? Tribalism is simply the innate way that might makes right. By forming coercive alliances based on spurious similarities, one can achieve stronger security and increased affluence, especially if at the expense of others. "

My reply : Stronger security? Increase affluence? Sorry, Muslims have no such effect in their group. Islam is the only group in the world which has a body which is recognised internationally - OIC YET, OIC is doesn't give any security or increase influence. Muslims nations mostly are 3rd World country (except for certain countries such as Arab). I don't see the effect a Tribalism has in Muslim society.

"1. No, she did not take up Islam. Her husband has no problems, some members of his family did of course, but she’s not Islamic by any stretch. "

My reply : Do you know what category her husband and herself is in Islam's point of view? They commited adultery and had Murtad because their marriage will not be accepted by Muslim society (in countries such as mine) and her husband didn't force her to take Islam.

"2. She keeps her maiden name. The children have his surname, but that’s common here regardless. "

My reply : This is fine.

"3. They celebrate Christmas & Easter, not particularly religiously but then again not many do here anyway. "

My reply : Her husband (I persume he was a Muslim) lives either as a Munafik or Murtad already once he celebrate another religious festival (despite of not being deep into the other religion).

"I’d add that he’s Muslim enough to be participating in Ramadan at the moment & despite that they are both quite accepting of each other’s religious upbringings. They have been married 8 years and are moving into a new house this weekend. "

My reply : Here's my advice to them, DO NOT go to countries such as Arab and the Mid East since Murtad is not a very tolerated offence there (nor adultery for that matter). I could say more but it will be against my promise not to condemn Islam for punishment of Murtad which I made to someone in another forum.

"You miss the point. The external factors which govern our lives are out of our control & we cannot predict them. I’m all for taking on the responsibility for our own lives, but I also accept that some things I cannot control or understand perfectly. One can do one’s best but there are no certainties or guarantees. To expect such is naïve. "

My reply : Yes, Life has no guarantees, but that doesn't mean you cannot plan your life properly. Knowing what you want and why you want it is one step closer in planning your own life.

"... four factors which I could think of :
1. Our degree of understanding of ourselves and people around you.
2. Our emotions (checked or unchecked).
3. Our desires and needs.
4. X-Factor (other people's 1,2,3 together with certain factors such as the environments, etc)."

"Good, yes. So when something in life doesn’t go according to plan, maybe it’s a mistake OR maybe it’s 1,2,3,4. In the case of the latter, I hardly see it as the individual’s fault. "

My reply : Individual's "fault" usually happens because of 1, 2, and 3. Only the X-Factor which is beyond our control. In that context, we will have 80% - 90% of our own lives in our hand, we shape our future despite of what may come.

"So how can it be your fault if Muslims persecute you as a Kafir ? Because you chose to be a Kafir ? I don’t see that as your fault. "

My reply : I don't see it as my fault either. Why should I condemn myself as a kafir since the word doesn't exist. This is considered as X-Factor which I stated about, but IF I make this an excuse to go after Muslims by hating them, then factor 1,2 and 3 will make it my destiny to hate and be hated by Muslims.

To make long story short, even so the X-Factor is beyond your control, you have the choice to make it your own factor to push you in certain directions.

"What evidence do you have for the existence of predetermined fate or destiny ?"

My reply : You determine your own fate, God doesn't determine it for you. You want evidence, I have none.

"How do you know you were a spoilt brat in your last life ? "

My reply : Let's skip this one otherwise we will be spending days talking about reincarnations and stuff.

echidna

Well at least it’s a relief that the victim is not always at fault. For a moment, do you consider that maybe there are many such circumstances where innocent victims might suffer due to this X-factor ?

Out of curiosity, on what authority do you decide from the other side of the planet, whether or not people are responsible for their own suffering or not ?

For starters, tribalism extends way beyond just the Muslim world. It’s simply how homo sapiens empowers itself, by banding together in numbers against others. Examples a-plenty – racism, nationalism, religious bigotry, socio-economic stratification, you name it.

Now in the Muslim case, by identifying oneself as a Muslim, one links oneself to a huge tribe of other Muslims, just as an Australian patriot links himself with 20 million other Australians.

The simple greeting Assalamualaikum (if you’ll excuse the poor phonetic spelling) is a quick way to artificially create a brotherhood throughout the world. It’s the same tribalism which Al Quaeda employs to defend itself, that an attack on it is an attack on every Muslim, or that Hussein uses, that an attack on Iraq is an attack on every Muslim.

One sees the same behaviour in most extreme national patriotism for that matter.

They were married in Turkey & have subsequently returned several times, as well as visiting Palestine and Egypt, all Islamic last time I checked. You over-dramatise.

Well I’d argue the toss over your arbitrary percentage.

For instance, it largely depends on the individual’s freedoms, politically, socially, economically, and so forth. In the west and to an extent in Malaysia, one has a much higher degree of freedom than one in Afghanistan.

For one born in a rural Afghan village, one would have no access to education or outside information. Religious laws govern social behaviour rigidly with brutal punishment for non-compliance. Perpetual poverty guarantees that one’s subsistence living gives zero opportunity for self-determination.

Does such a person still have 80% - 90% of their own lives in their hands ? Hardly.

But you seem to once again apply your own arbitrary percentage to everyone, regardless of their individual circumstances. Such repeated lack of consideration for others might indeed by seen as characteristic of a spoilt brat.

Interestingly you attribute the X-factor to only 10 – 20% of your life, so presumably the persecution which you experience in Malaysia is relatively minor since overwhelmingly you are very much still in control of your life. It then seems inappropriate for you to be complaining so vehemently about something so trivial, given that presumably there are many other factors other than this Muslim persecution which make up this 10-20% X-factor.

And how is it more logical than “shit happens” then ?

Voltaire Is My Hero

*And just prior to the Nigerian beauty pageant instance, Muslims in India went out on the streets seeking to pick a fight with Hindus after hearing that Jerry Falwell called Mohammad a false prophet of violence or something similar [I can't keep up with these never-ending religious melodramas!]. Yes, the Muslims became incensed at their precious prophet being called a violent man -- so they went out and picked a street fight which left some people dead.

Yes, that's a great way to try and prove your prophet WASN'T about violence -- fighting and killing. Duh.

--Cindy

[ November 29, 2002: Message edited by: Voltaire Is My Hero ]</p>

Voltaire Is My Hero

*And just prior to the Nigerian beauty pageant instance, Muslims in India went out on the streets seeking to pick a fight with Hindus after hearing that Jerry Falwell called Mohammad a false prophet of violence or something similar [I can't keep up with these never-ending religious melodramas!]. Yes, the Muslims became incensed at their precious prophet being called a violent man -- so they went out and picked a street fight which left some people dead.

Yes, that's a great way to try and prove your prophet WASN'T about violence -- fighting and killing. Duh.

--Cindy

Seraphim

"Well at least it’s a relief that the victim is not always at fault. For a moment, do you consider that maybe there are many such circumstances where innocent victims might suffer due to this X-factor ? "

My reply : The victims are not at fault if something that happens to them is because of an outside factor (X-Factor) which they have no control over.
Circumstances such as what? If the option is in the person's hand (example, whether to drink and drive, have prematial sex etc), then it is not considered X-factor.

"Out of curiosity, on what authority do you decide from the other side of the planet, whether or not people are responsible for their own suffering or not ?"

My reply : Maybe because I'm in the same society as the rest of you people are in, and that I have better control over myself. Or maybe by telling you all this, I'm trying to reduce the X-Factor of something (like drunkard slamming a 16 Wheeler into me or someone I love) from happening to me.

"For starters, tribalism extends way beyond just the Muslim world. It’s simply how homo sapiens empowers itself, by banding together in numbers against others. Examples a-plenty – racism, nationalism, religious bigotry, socio-economic stratification, you name it. "

My reply : OK, acceptable.

"Now in the Muslim case, by identifying oneself as a Muslim, one links oneself to a huge tribe of other Muslims, just as an Australian patriot links himself with 20 million other Australians.

The simple greeting Assalamualaikum (if you’ll excuse the poor phonetic spelling) is a quick way to artificially create a brotherhood throughout the world. It’s the same tribalism which Al Quaeda employs to defend itself, that an attack on it is an attack on every Muslim, or that Hussein uses, that an attack on Iraq is an attack on every Muslim.

One sees the same behaviour in most extreme national patriotism for that matter. "

My reply : Acceptable. Question now - What are we supposed to do with this situation? Do we fight or do we be peaceful with them? The world seems to be coming to a crosspoint in this issue, it seems. As for me, I already decided to fight in my own ways.

"They were married in Turkey & have subsequently returned several times, as well as visiting Palestine and Egypt, all Islamic last time I checked. You over-dramatise. "

My reply : Maybe ... Anyway, good luck to them and their children.

"For instance, it largely depends on the individual’s freedoms, politically, socially, economically, and so forth. In the west and to an extent in Malaysia, one has a much higher degree of freedom than one in Afghanistan.

For one born in a rural Afghan village, one would have no access to education or outside information. Religious laws govern social behaviour rigidly with brutal punishment for non-compliance. Perpetual poverty guarantees that one’s subsistence living gives zero opportunity for self-determination.

Does such a person still have 80% - 90% of their own lives in their hands ? Hardly. "

My reply : Nonsense. Now you are making excuses for people who don't bother to live their lives. Each person has a brain and capability to reason. If someone don't know or don't bother to know what is right or wrong and simply follow the group like a cattle, then why should I have any pity for him or her.

No one makes choices for you, the choice is ALWAYS your and it is your choice alone whether you want to follow your choice or someone else's choice. If anyone says otherwise, I will ask him or her to hang himself or herself since he or she is ALREADY dead.

"But you seem to once again apply your own arbitrary percentage to everyone, regardless of their individual circumstances. Such repeated lack of consideration for others might indeed by seen as characteristic of a spoilt brat. "

My reply : Such excuses such as individual circumstances only exists to those who too damn lazy to make their own choices and decides to follow the masses like a cattle. Spoilt brat I maybe, but at least I'm a brat who knows where he is going and knows what to do when time comes.

"Interestingly you attribute the X-factor to only 10 – 20% of your life, so presumably the persecution which you experience in Malaysia is relatively minor since overwhelmingly you are very much still in control of your life. It then seems inappropriate for you to be complaining so vehemently about something so trivial, given that presumably there are many other factors other than this Muslim persecution which make up this 10-20% X-factor. "

My reply : If you remember properly the 1,2 and 3 of the Factors involve, it will show that the X-Factor maybe an outside factor, but when it hits you, it will give you option whether to close your eyes and ignore it or make a choice to do something about it. I decided to do something by talking about it (in this example - my upset over the Government and Muslims in general) and by taking my own (peaceful) approach to protest.

Just because it makes only 10% - 20%, that doesn't mean I will ignore it because my children may not have such options available to them to make.

"And how is it more logical than “shit happens” then ? "

My reply : Simple, by accepting that we are the masters of our own fate, we will be more responsible and think things through in everything we do, simply because the things we do now will effect the future generation. If we say that things happens just because it was destined in such way, then we will not push forward. In life, that seems to be a logical approach.