Freethought & Rationalism Archive

excreationist · 08-07-2002, 04:46 PM

I think Paddy's girlfriend is just talking about consciousness and raw experience (subjective experience) alone being evidence for a spiritual realm... she's not necessarily saying that near-death experiences, ghosts, etc, are real.

Paddy · 08-07-2002, 07:22 PM

I simply believe that subjective 'supernatural' experiences can be explained scientifically.

Whether it be explained as being a result of hyperactive electrochemical processes, expectations as a result of social-cognitive learning, stages of cognitive development (eg. animism), or whatever the case may be, it is still an endogenous creation. It is not an external force/entity imposing itself upon an individual from 'out there'. However, as I stated before, I am really not well informed on this topic, and I am interested to hear some facts, or opinions, presented by others in order to gain a better understanding.

Paddy

excreationist · 08-08-2002, 05:55 AM

Paddy:

Here's some recent threads about arguments for and against life after death...

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000369" target="_blank">A Critique of Susan Blackmore's Dying to Live and her Dying Brain Hypothesis.</a>
<a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879758708/qid=1028814041/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6325370-5497533" target="_blank">Here's a link to her book with sample pages</a>... I think it would be a good book for explaining NDE's (near-death experiences)

<a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000395" target="_blank">Evidence for Life after Death</a>
I think the people in that thread don't really believe in life after death though... they're just discussing possible evidences for it.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant... it seems you're saying that your girlfriend believes that she has had experiences with the supernatural realm... with angels or ghosts or God or whatever...
Well then I think things like hallucinations, coincidences, being in a hypnotic suggestive state (in the case of group hallucinations), selective memories (forgetting about conflicting evidence), pattern-finding in our senses (seeing figures in the shadows, etc), etc, would explain a lot.

Anyway, there are lots of different kinds of spiritual experiences... could you be as specific as possible about what your girlfriend claims to have experienced? Then we'd be in a better position to help you.

[ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]

Boro Nut · 08-08-2002, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy:
I recently got into a debate on whether or not there exists a "spiritual realm". ... The debate remains unresolved.

You just need to read up a bit and learn how to win arguments of this sort. My missus was similarly obdurate until I bought an appropriate book. After careful study I was able to rebut her arguments simply and easily by applying pressure to key points on her body. I was soon able to swing her round to my point of view, and she invariably sees it from my perspective first time now. Chinese burns are another good opening gambit in metaphysical discussions IMHO.

Boro Nut

Paddy · 08-08-2002, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Boro Nut:


You just need to read up a bit and learn how to win arguments of this sort. My missus was similarly obdurate until I bought an appropriate book. After careful study I was able to rebut her arguments simply and easily by applying pressure to key points on her body. I was soon able to swing her round to my point of view, and she invariably sees it from my perspective first time now. Chinese burns are another good opening gambit in metaphysical discussions IMHO.

Boro Nut

I may not know a lot about neuroscience, but if you want to talk chinese burns, let's get it on...I am the chinese burn master!

Paddy · 08-08-2002, 03:22 PM

Ex,
Thanks for those links mate, they were just what I was after.
I wanted to know for sure that there was empirical evidence to support my claims that 'spiritual experiences' can be an endogenous construct

As Fiach wrote:

Quote:

Furthermore, as an epilepsy neurologist I have had many patients with OBE's. I can induce one by putting the patient on EEG monitor with telemetry. Withhold the anti-seizure drugs, and the patient with a mesial temporal electrically excitable focus will have his OBE. We record his EEG and see the spike and desynchronised activity coming from the mesial temporal lobe and spreading to fronto-temporal and posterior temporal lobes.

I think this example could be justifiably extended to include all 'spiritual' phenomena, and not just out of body experiences, in order to illustrate that 'spiritual expereiences' can be percieved by an individual, if that individual is experiencing an excess of neural firing, or an imbalance of neurotransmitters.

cheers,
Paddy

Marduk · 08-08-2002, 03:55 PM

“It is not an external force/entity imposing itself upon an individual from 'out there'.”

Ah! I think this is the crux of the biscuit. We err when we try to establish a difference between ‘in here’ and ‘out there’. I suspect it may be more of a continuum.

Paddy · 08-09-2002, 04:59 PM

maduck:

Quote:

Ah! I think this is the crux of the biscuit. We err when we try to establish a difference between ‘in here’ and ‘out there’. I suspect it may be more of a continuum.

Are you positing that it is the spiritual phenomena that may be causing the 'abnormal' neural functioning, and that science is only able to ostensibly replicate this phenomenon?

Marduk · 08-10-2002, 08:00 AM

"Are you positing that it is the spiritual phenomena that may be causing the 'abnormal' neural functioning, and that science is only able to ostensibly replicate this phenomenon? "

No, I'm saying there is no way to tell, does a drug/procedure make you see something or enable you to see something.

08-08-2002, 05:55 AM	#13
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	Paddy: Here's some recent threads about arguments for and against life after death... <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000369" target="_blank">A Critique of Susan Blackmore's Dying to Live and her Dying Brain Hypothesis.</a> <a href="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0879758708/qid=1028814041/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6325370-5497533" target="_blank">Here's a link to her book with sample pages</a>... I think it would be a good book for explaining NDE's (near-death experiences) <a href="http://iidb.org/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=57&t=000395" target="_blank">Evidence for Life after Death</a> I think the people in that thread don't really believe in life after death though... they're just discussing possible evidences for it. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant... it seems you're saying that your girlfriend believes that she has had experiences with the supernatural realm... with angels or ghosts or God or whatever... Well then I think things like hallucinations, coincidences, being in a hypnotic suggestive state (in the case of group hallucinations), selective memories (forgetting about conflicting evidence), pattern-finding in our senses (seeing figures in the shadows, etc), etc, would explain a lot. Anyway, there are lots of different kinds of spiritual experiences... could you be as specific as possible about what your girlfriend claims to have experienced? Then we'd be in a better position to help you. [ August 08, 2002: Message edited by: excreationist ]</p>

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08-07-2002, 04:46 PM	#11
excreationist Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: Australia Posts: 4,886	I think Paddy's girlfriend is just talking about consciousness and raw experience (subjective experience) alone being evidence for a spiritual realm... she's not necessarily saying that near-death experiences, ghosts, etc, are real.

08-07-2002, 07:22 PM	#12
Paddy Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 47	I simply believe that subjective 'supernatural' experiences can be explained scientifically. Whether it be explained as being a result of hyperactive electrochemical processes, expectations as a result of social-cognitive learning, stages of cognitive development (eg. animism), or whatever the case may be, it is still an endogenous creation. It is not an external force/entity imposing itself upon an individual from 'out there'. However, as I stated before, I am really not well informed on this topic, and I am interested to hear some facts, or opinions, presented by others in order to gain a better understanding. Paddy

08-08-2002, 03:55 PM	#17
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	“It is not an external force/entity imposing itself upon an individual from 'out there'.” Ah! I think this is the crux of the biscuit. We err when we try to establish a difference between ‘in here’ and ‘out there’. I suspect it may be more of a continuum.

08-10-2002, 08:00 AM	#19
Marduk Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2000 Location: the 10th planet Posts: 5,065	"Are you positing that it is the spiritual phenomena that may be causing the 'abnormal' neural functioning, and that science is only able to ostensibly replicate this phenomenon? " No, I'm saying there is no way to tell, does a drug/procedure make you see something or enable you to see something.

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