Freethought & Rationalism Archive

hezekiah jones · 03-08-2003, 04:47 PM

Originally posted by Eric Starnes
Dosnt it bother you that the nazis that managed to sneak out of germany and not be found later did not and never will be punished in any way for the murder/torture of millions of people?

I can't say I've lost much sleep over it. Idi Amin is still kicking around somewhere too, isn't he? I have no expectation that justice, whatever that may be, will always be done.

Originally posted by Eric Starnes
Wouldnt it bring you satisfaction to know that they are being punished in the afterlife?

Of course not. And the whole idea of people being "punished" in some "afterlife" is completely ridiculous, especially since among many Christians people are supposedly punished for the alleged "crime" of simply not believing. In fact if you accept the Christian position, it necessarily follows that Adolf Eichmann and Mahatma Gandhi are suffering equally, or even that Eichmann went to heaven because he "announced for Jesus" on his deathbed.

Shadowy Man · 03-08-2003, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eric Starnes

Wouldnt it bring you satisfaction to know that they are being punished in the afterlife?

Not if it meant that I'd be burning right next to them when I die.

Where's the Justice in that?!?

Eric Starnes · 03-08-2003, 05:02 PM

Quote:

In fact if you accept the Christian position, it necessarily follows that Adolf Eichmann and Mahatma Gandhi are suffering equally, or even that Eichmann went to heaven because he "announced for Jesus" on his deathbed.

Well things such as catholics "baptism by desire" can solve the first part of your statement. The second part, well, i dont know.

PS. Eichmann was hanged, he didnt have a deathbed.

sakrilege · 03-08-2003, 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by davidH
"Was your whole heart devoted to finding God?"

Yes, I had found him. I felt his presence and enjoyed the peace. I had no reason to become an atheist, life was very good for me and I credited god. But then I stopped believing without wanting to, I fought it too, but it still happened.

christ-on-a-stick · 03-08-2003, 05:38 PM

davidH -

YES.

For many years, you have no idea how earnestly I sought God... prayed and read the Bible DAILY, went to church several times a week, read all the Xian literature I could find and on top of all that, spent countless nights praying, begging, crying & pleading for God to make himself real to me.

Vain protestations to an empty sky.

As you might imagine, there is almost nothing more insulting than being told "you weren't REALLY seeking" (as I have been by family members) when the aching pain of wanting desperately to feel God - and getting only stone silence - is still fresh in my mind.

I have to run out the door to dinner now, but when I get back I will address your criticisms of my 5-points.

ju'iblex · 03-08-2003, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eric Starnes

I dont understand how anyone can be happy knowing that their life is ultimately meaningless, that they are only alive because their parents engaged in a hormone induced humpfest and that they will be worm food and forgotten in the near future. How do you guys do it?

hon, you pursue that which you love, you live knowing you are free to be who you are without the need for guilt, you make your *own* meaning. You cant just weigh up the pros and cons of believing in something and decide to believe in it, you cant make that kind of choice, and if you choose wither one without believing in it completely, that will be such a hollow existence.

Quote:

You want me to trust an industry that gives amphetamines to little kids and thinks that fucking with my serotonin levels counts as "treatment." No thanks.

so instead you consider turning to an industry, religion, completely founded on manipulation and greed just like any other industry? And to those who want to 'change' others because they dont adhere to the values and belief system they have chosen? Ironic.

Bumble Bee Tuna · 03-08-2003, 06:01 PM

COAS- yes, but no matter how much you tell them, theists will sting cling to their no true scotsman fallacy because if they don't they'll be forced to think about how they're deluding themselves.

For Eric:

No, it does not bother me. The purpose of punishment is to correct a mindset, to provide a deterrance, or to get rid of a threat. As dead people are already gone, there is no reason for them to need to be punished. Punishing them doesn't somehow undo the damage they did.

As for depression medication- Depression can be caused by not having enough serotonin. What is wrong with increasing serotonin levels? What would you expect for the treatment of low serotonin levels?
Therapy, meanwhile, does nothing of the sort so your objection doesn't really apply there.

-B

Eric Starnes · 03-08-2003, 06:20 PM

Quote:

hon, you pursue that which you love, you live knowing you are free to be who you are without the need for guilt, you make your *own* meaning.

Make up my own meaning!?!

Make up my own meaning?!?

What standards should i use when "making up my own meaning?"

Dont you realize how *hollow* that sounds! This is exactly what is killing me about life right now. The Shit i make up just isnt doing it for me any more.

If i can just make up my own meaning then why not decide that torturing people is the meaning of my life? Sure the poliece will catch me after a while but then i can go out with a blaze of glory and maybe make national news. I dont know how meaningful that would be but it would certianly be more exciting then what i am doing right now. And hey why not, i will just end up the same way everyone else does. I will be lieing right there between Mahatma Gandhi, and Adolf Eichmann on the worm buffet.

Quote:

You cant just weigh up the pros and cons of believing in something and decide to believe in it, you cant make that kind of choice, and if you choose wither one without believing in it completely

You may not be able to, but i bet i can. I could go to the local chapter of "campus crusade for christ" and tell them my story and they will fight over who gets to convert the infidel. They will call on all their church resources to save my infidel ass. With their help and my determination i bet i could be a full blown, bible beating, fire and brimstone christian before i graduate. I would be able to look back at these words and see them for the devil spawn that they are. You would be amazed what i can do when i set my mind to it.

Quote:

that will be such a hollow existence.

My existance if hollow NOW.

Quote:

so instead you consider turning to an industry, religion, completely founded on manipulation and greed just like any other industry? And to those who want to 'change' others because they dont adhere to the values and belief system they have chosen? Ironic.

Very good point. I dont know what to say.

ju'iblex · 03-08-2003, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eric Starnes
What standards should i use when "making up my own meaning?"

thats your decision, i have my values and beliefs which i arrived at indepedently after a fair bit of thought, you'll have yours. It's your life after all.

Quote:

Dont you realize how *hollow* that sounds! This is exactly what is killing me about life right now. The Shit i make up just isnt doing it for me any more.

i understand that feeling. But to tell the truth, i go by what my passions are and what interests me greatly. To be completely honest, i live for languages, the arts and knowledge. I pursue those goals with every inch of my being because thats what i enjoy and makes me happy/ier. You dont have to make shit up.

Quote:

If i can just make up my own meaning then why not decide that torturing people is the meaning of my life? Sure the poliece will catch me after a while but then i can go out with a blaze of glory and maybe make national news. I dont know how meaningful that would be but it would certianly be more exciting then what i am doing right now. And hey why not, i will just end up the same way everyone else does. I will be lieing right there between Mahatma Gandhi, and Adolf Eichmann on the worm buffet.

hey, i gave you my belief system and how i work <well, a fair percentage of the time>, you asked, albeit rhetorically. I dont care if you decide to implement any of it, its your life and your decisions.

Quote:

You may not be able to, but i bet i can. I could go to the local chapter of "campus crusade for christ" and tell them my story and they will fight over who gets to convert the infidel. They will call on all their church resources to save my infidel ass. With their help and my determination i bet i could be a full blown, bible beating, fire and brimstone christian before i graduate. I would be able to look back at these words and see them for the devil spawn that they are. You would be amazed what i can do when i set my mind to it.

i dont think you believe that. If you could do so much if you set your mind to it, i dont think you would be asking this on some random discussion board.

Ojuice5001 · 03-08-2003, 06:40 PM

Why are you considering only Christianity and secular humanism? I see both those worldviews as basically idols with feet of clay. I think there are far too many people who take one or both of those worldviews seriously, but nothing else. Don't be one of them!

I believe my hard-polytheistic Roman paganism is highly worthy of consideration, but I'm not saying you should consider that if you don't want to. If you prefer a more conventional worldview, I would consider Hinduism more than Christianity or humanism.

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03-08-2003, 04:47 PM	#21
hezekiah jones Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: WI Posts: 4,357	Originally posted by Eric Starnes Dosnt it bother you that the nazis that managed to sneak out of germany and not be found later did not and never will be punished in any way for the murder/torture of millions of people? I can't say I've lost much sleep over it. Idi Amin is still kicking around somewhere too, isn't he? I have no expectation that justice, whatever that may be, will always be done. Originally posted by Eric Starnes Wouldnt it bring you satisfaction to know that they are being punished in the afterlife? Of course not. And the whole idea of people being "punished" in some "afterlife" is completely ridiculous, especially since among many Christians people are supposedly punished for the alleged "crime" of simply not believing. In fact if you accept the Christian position, it necessarily follows that Adolf Eichmann and Mahatma Gandhi are suffering equally, or even that Eichmann went to heaven because he "announced for Jesus" on his deathbed.

03-08-2003, 05:38 PM	#25
christ-on-a-stick Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Durango, Colorado Posts: 7,116	davidH - YES. For many years, you have no idea how earnestly I sought God... prayed and read the Bible DAILY, went to church several times a week, read all the Xian literature I could find and on top of all that, spent countless nights praying, begging, crying & pleading for God to make himself real to me. Vain protestations to an empty sky. As you might imagine, there is almost nothing more insulting than being told "you weren't REALLY seeking" (as I have been by family members) when the aching pain of wanting desperately to feel God - and getting only stone silence - is still fresh in my mind. I have to run out the door to dinner now, but when I get back I will address your criticisms of my 5-points.

03-08-2003, 06:01 PM	#27
Bumble Bee Tuna Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Middletown, CT Posts: 7,333	COAS- yes, but no matter how much you tell them, theists will sting cling to their no true scotsman fallacy because if they don't they'll be forced to think about how they're deluding themselves. For Eric: No, it does not bother me. The purpose of punishment is to correct a mindset, to provide a deterrance, or to get rid of a threat. As dead people are already gone, there is no reason for them to need to be punished. Punishing them doesn't somehow undo the damage they did. As for depression medication- Depression can be caused by not having enough serotonin. What is wrong with increasing serotonin levels? What would you expect for the treatment of low serotonin levels? Therapy, meanwhile, does nothing of the sort so your objection doesn't really apply there. -B

03-08-2003, 06:40 PM	#30
Ojuice5001 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: A city in Florida that I love Posts: 3,416	Why are you considering only Christianity and secular humanism? I see both those worldviews as basically idols with feet of clay. I think there are far too many people who take one or both of those worldviews seriously, but nothing else. Don't be one of them! I believe my hard-polytheistic Roman paganism is highly worthy of consideration, but I'm not saying you should consider that if you don't want to. If you prefer a more conventional worldview, I would consider Hinduism more than Christianity or humanism.

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