KnightWhoSaysNi

I have an evangelical Christian friend who hopes that one day I will convert to his faith and be "saved." Occasionally we debate our views and I’m reluctant to tell him precisely why I can never embrace his beliefs. Most Christians would find my reasons to be extremely offensive, but I personally think they are convincing. I can sum it up why in a word: the Holocaust. So what does the Holocaust have to do with my rejection of Christianity? You’ll find out in a moment.

The Old Testament is filled with some interesting stories. One of them being a case of the Amalekites:

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (1 Samuel 15:3)

To be true to their faith, Evangelical Christian apologists must accept such atrocities as a form of divine justice, no matter how morally reprehensible. I am tempted to reply, "was that carried out with or without Zyklon B?" After all, what’s the difference between hacking a bunch of women and children to death with swords and axes compared to herding them into a gas chamber?

Perhaps an ancient Israelite, inspired by the Old Testament deity, would respond this way to the atrocity:

"This is a page of glory in our history... We had the moral right, we had the duty to our people to destroy this people which wanted to destroy us."

Of course, the above quote wasn't uttered by an ancient Israelite, but by S.S. chief Heinrich Himmler, regarding his views on the Final Solution.

Finally, if the atrocities of the Old Testament aren't enough, the Holocaust infers another form of divine "justice" if we assume evangelical Christian beliefs are true. After enduring years of hardship and near starvation in crowded ghettos, Jews are shipped to concentration camps, told to strip and are led to a chamber. They are told to expect a shower but are then horrified to find themselves choking on poison gas. They perish... and awake to find themselves in a far more "Hellish" and eternal form of concentration camp. After all, since they were "unsaved", they rejected Christ and "chose" Hell, right?

While evangelical Christians are forced to accept and defend such things as the will of a supposed loving god, I cannot. It is not omnibenevolence, but omnimalevolence. Every human and moral fibre in me screams against such dehumanizing theological "justice" and is this is why I can never become a Christian, at least in the conservative evangelical form.

Sorry to have offended anyone, but if Christians really want to know why we have troubles accepting their views, these are some of the deep-down reasons. I'd like to think that the universe we live in makes more logical sense instead of it being a completely absurd realm where the terms "good" and "evil" can be turned on their heads at a divine whim.

[edit: minor grammar and vocabulary changes]

[ July 19, 2002: Message edited by: Nightshade ]</p>

ChrisJGQ

"...a God who could make good children as easily a bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could have made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave is angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell--mouths mercy, and invented hell--mouths Golden Rules and foregiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honorably placing it where it belongs, upon himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtuseness, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!"

-Mark Twain

echidna

I agree Nightshade. The problem of omnipotence and infinite love are completely incompatible with the world we see. (Unless there’s some convoluted bizzarro justice which I am completely overlooking.)

While I find much humanist wisdom in the Bible, this big’un remains completely unanswered AFAIC.

Bokonon

You've identified exactly why I rejected my faith. In 8th Grade, following Confirmation, I decided to learn more about my faith. So, I read the Bible. By 2 Samuel, I was Agnostic. I did not realize how evil my supposed Holy book truly was.

Boro Nut

Silly. Your arms aren't long enough.

Boro Nut

babelfish

Oh how I adore Mr. Clemens, he makes me wish heaven was real just so I could meet him and maybe run my fingers through his lovely fluffy white hair....

mibby529

I agree with Nightshade. One of the JCIG's biggest problems is his psychopathic tendencies. He certainly explains why Theocratic America enjoys playing "blame the victim." (David Horowitz, anyone?)

Blu

Some or maybe most Christians believe that the Bible has a lot of "History" written within it. THe message within the Bible that Christians follow has really nothing to do with the atrocities of History written in it. Christians become Christians because of the message. History is history and created by Humans.

Your reasoning that Christians somehow condone murder etc. is an assumption and a subjective perception. You are entitled to them but they are not fact.

Thanks

Jamie_L

But in the OT, the history is the message. In order for the meaning to have nothing to do with the atrocities, you almost have to invent a new meaning that has nothing to do with what is actually written in the OT. Which I guess is what the NT is: you need a whole new set of books in order to deliver a message of a loving God, because such a message is nowhere to be found in the OT.

In order for Christians to accept the new message, they must disassociate it from the OT "histories" as you suggest. Yet, that would seem to me to require saying the OT is not part of the Christian religion at all, is not in any way the word of God, but instead is a "history book" that is full of incorrect presumptions about God. This, to the best of my knowledge, is not the stance of most Christians.

Jamie

Queen of Swords

Originally posted by Blu:
<strong>
History is history and created by Humans. </strong>

According to the bible, who ordered the "Humans" to kill all these people?

<strong>Your reasoning that Christians somehow condone murder etc. is an assumption and a subjective perception.</strong>

I don't think Christians condone murder, but they worship a god who apparently ordered the massacre of thousands of noncombatants (infants, children, women, old people, etc).