Freethought & Rationalism Archive

05-30-2003, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hubble head
Forget the Catholics have truth??? Catholic and truth in the same sentance, jeez I laughed so hard I fell out of my chair. Thank you for my morning laugh. //

I agree they will out last Bush & co. but America? Hmmm, doubtful. We still have another 70-100 years of power left in our engines -even if they're misfiring a little right now we'll get het overhauled soon enough.

And who is brown nosing?

Well I am glad I made your day. Oh yes, it will outlast any and every nation because she, the Church is the mother of the living and therefore called the Holy Catholic Church. Let me put it another way. If and when sombody within Christendom (and this includes America) latches on to some truth "it" will drag him to Rome--which in turn is why all roads lead to Rome. Obviously, this has not happened yet to Bush & co and that is why he/they are still brown nosing.

Ever wondered why we are the only Church with saints in heaven?

Gemma Therese · 05-30-2003, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos

Ever wondered why we are the only Church with saints in heaven?

Gemma Therese

cjack · 05-30-2003, 09:13 PM

Just a question from an uneducated infidel with a fundified Catholic friend...

Is there a possibility that the RC church will respond to these problems with a "reformation" of its own? Could the reaction from Rome be an extremely conservative, even "fundamentalist" one?

I ask because my friend is a member of a pretty popular Catholic church around these parts, and while they seem like nice folks, he is shaping up to be a strict Biblical literalist...which is at odds with most of the Catholics I've known.

For example, he was pretty disgusted when he saw the shiny new Darwin fish on my car. Another devout Catholic I know (my sister's best friend) laughed out loud when she saw it, and wanted to know where she could get one!

My discussion with him today was regarding Jefferson's religious beliefs. I made the point that Jefferson (in his letter to Peter Carr) was arguing against taking anything on blind faith. His reply was "you and Jefferson are wrong...blind faith is where its at, baby."

Is that a possibility? A return to strict dogma and such?

Or will they liberalize and give us "Buddy Christ?"

Radorth · 05-30-2003, 11:04 PM

Quote:

But, if Catholicism falls away, many of its believers could be drawn into the clutches of absolutist fundamentalism. The traditions of decent education found in Catholic schools could be replaced by fundy bible schools in many areas.

Ah yes, they could end up:

1. being encouraged to read the Bible for themselves and questioning stuff they were told was in there somewhere, but then told that if it isn't, it doesn't matter because the Pope can add virtually anything he wants

2. asking where the heck the "educated priests" were in 1840 when "fundie" Oberlin started graduating black females

3. asking how come, if Peter was married, the rest of the popes and poor priests could not be, and were therefore left vulnerable to sexual sin

4. in a genuine spiritual renewal, such as the Protestant "fundies" seem to enjoy every 30 years or so, and which brings in millions of new church members.

5. free of the notion that God will forsake you in a minute if you mess up or miss mass, or don't get around to getting anullments when you change partners ( a truly disgusting cover-up for divorce which some rich Catholics use again and again)

6. free of an almost cultish legalism and idol worship

7. meeting some "fundies" who love God as much as they ever did, and worship him "in spirit and in truth" with holy hands.

That sort of horrible thing.

Rad

Radorth · 05-30-2003, 11:14 PM

Quote:

Ever wondered why we are the only Church with saints in heaven?

Heh. Ever wonder why we are the only church with saints on earth ?

Does the Catholic Bible have Paul's letters BTW? You seem quite ignorant of them, Amos. Before your forefathers started ignoring vast portions of the NT in order to create a separate priest class, selling various graces, all Christians were saints. I'm afraid there is nothing much more apparent in the NT.

Rad

Gemma Therese · 05-31-2003, 04:03 AM

Rad-

You may not be aware of this ... but over the years, Roman Catholic sisters in this country have been probably the best educated group of women. They founded colleges, which they taught in and administered. There is doubt in my mind the number of sisters with their Masters and Ph.D.s had been disproportiobate to the general female population, especially during the early and mid 20th century.

Roman Catholic sisters have done more for the feminist movement than most people realize (or appreciate).

Gemma Therese

Hubble head · 05-31-2003, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Amos
Well I am glad I made your day. Oh yes, it will outlast any and every nation because she, the Church is the mother of the living and therefore called the Holy Catholic Church. Let me put it another way. If and when sombody within Christendom (and this includes America) latches on to some truth "it" will drag him to Rome--which in turn is why all roads lead to Rome. Obviously, this has not happened yet to Bush & co and that is why he/they are still brown nosing.

Ever wondered why we are the only Church with saints in heaven?

Like the guy addicted to heroin, I feel sorry for you too.

sullster · 05-31-2003, 02:06 PM

Wow, Radorth versus Amos. The wars of the Reformation Redux. Welcome back to the Sixteenth Century in Europe!
Who is right and who is wrong? Who cares? It's all irrational nonsense.

Gemma, Your claim of academic achievements of nuns is greatly negated and overshadowed by the utterly patriarchial nature of Catholicism. To claim that Catholicism has advanced the opportunities for women is absurd. Nuns with academic degrees are still not allowed any power in the church and that there were more degreed nuns in the early 20th century is only indicative of the free time they had.

Radorth, The abolitionist movement of the Nineteenth Century was heavily supported by the Protestant sects, but I would hardly consider them "fundy". The sects which were abolitionist were hated and condemned by fundy sects such as the Southern Baptists. The Protestant Sects which founded such colleges as Oberlin and educated blacks, were roundly hated by fundamentalist Southern protestants.

It is my contention that Catholicism in the USA is one of many checks on the spread of fundyism. This is not the case in countries where there is not such a massive fundy base, so the RC church in the USA is in a unique position. I realize that in predominantly catholic countries, it runs wild with its nonsense.
The USA has been and still is fortunate to have a large and powerful sect to counter fundyism.

We, who are atheist and secular, can only gain from the continual battle of the antagonist sects of the christian religion. We should encourage their battle.

Radorth · 05-31-2003, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Radorth, The abolitionist movement of the Nineteenth Century was heavily supported by the Protestant sects, but I would hardly consider them "fundy". The sects which were abolitionist were hated and condemned by fundy sects such as the Southern Baptists. The Protestant Sects which founded such colleges as Oberlin and educated blacks, were roundly hated by fundamentalist Southern protestants.

"Fundies" is your word, which I am careful to put in parentheses. Ironically, the early Quakers and Methodists were far more "fundy" than I am, since I do not believe in a literal 7 day creation. The point and fact is that they saw Jesus as the founder of egalitarian thought, and were inspired by his example and words to see all people as their equal in God's eyes. And while Ingersoll was doubtless ranting about Baptist predjudice, these "fundies" (by your own definitions here) were acting as though blacks were equal.

Even more telling is that Charles Finney was president of Oberlin, and no sane atheist would define him as anything but a raving fundie.

Sorry. Nice whack at damage control though.

Rad

Radorth · 05-31-2003, 04:54 PM

Quote:

We, who are atheist and secular, can only gain from the continual battle of the antagonist sects of the christian religion. We should encourage their battle.

Unfortunately we have now agreed on the major stumbling block of the reformation

http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/jddj.htm

We also agree on the Nicene Creed and have a definition of a Christian which most Christians, including Catholics, will sign up to, which was put together and voted on another site when we were challenged to come up with one.

Rad

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05-30-2003, 09:13 PM	#33
cjack Banned Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Arizona Posts: 4,294	Just a question from an uneducated infidel with a fundified Catholic friend... Is there a possibility that the RC church will respond to these problems with a "reformation" of its own? Could the reaction from Rome be an extremely conservative, even "fundamentalist" one? I ask because my friend is a member of a pretty popular Catholic church around these parts, and while they seem like nice folks, he is shaping up to be a strict Biblical literalist...which is at odds with most of the Catholics I've known. For example, he was pretty disgusted when he saw the shiny new Darwin fish on my car. Another devout Catholic I know (my sister's best friend) laughed out loud when she saw it, and wanted to know where she could get one! My discussion with him today was regarding Jefferson's religious beliefs. I made the point that Jefferson (in his letter to Peter Carr) was arguing against taking anything on blind faith. His reply was "you and Jefferson are wrong...blind faith is where its at, baby." Is that a possibility? A return to strict dogma and such? Or will they liberalize and give us "Buddy Christ?"

05-31-2003, 04:03 AM	#36
Gemma Therese Senior Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: new york Posts: 608	Rad- You may not be aware of this ... but over the years, Roman Catholic sisters in this country have been probably the best educated group of women. They founded colleges, which they taught in and administered. There is doubt in my mind the number of sisters with their Masters and Ph.D.s had been disproportiobate to the general female population, especially during the early and mid 20th century. Roman Catholic sisters have done more for the feminist movement than most people realize (or appreciate). Gemma Therese

05-31-2003, 02:06 PM	#38
sullster Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: North of Boston Posts: 1,392	Wow, Radorth versus Amos. The wars of the Reformation Redux. Welcome back to the Sixteenth Century in Europe! Who is right and who is wrong? Who cares? It's all irrational nonsense. Gemma, Your claim of academic achievements of nuns is greatly negated and overshadowed by the utterly patriarchial nature of Catholicism. To claim that Catholicism has advanced the opportunities for women is absurd. Nuns with academic degrees are still not allowed any power in the church and that there were more degreed nuns in the early 20th century is only indicative of the free time they had. Radorth, The abolitionist movement of the Nineteenth Century was heavily supported by the Protestant sects, but I would hardly consider them "fundy". The sects which were abolitionist were hated and condemned by fundy sects such as the Southern Baptists. The Protestant Sects which founded such colleges as Oberlin and educated blacks, were roundly hated by fundamentalist Southern protestants. It is my contention that Catholicism in the USA is one of many checks on the spread of fundyism. This is not the case in countries where there is not such a massive fundy base, so the RC church in the USA is in a unique position. I realize that in predominantly catholic countries, it runs wild with its nonsense. The USA has been and still is fortunate to have a large and powerful sect to counter fundyism. We, who are atheist and secular, can only gain from the continual battle of the antagonist sects of the christian religion. We should encourage their battle.

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