Caverdude

Recently, I had an interesting e-mail conversation with a caver friend of mine (I will not use his real name and call him Bert for this posting). I call myself a “Liberal Christian” which means I like and accept the message of Jesus of Love and Forgiveness. I DO NOT take the bible literally and think it is ridiculous to do so. I think most of the Old Testament is full of bunk. I also accept fundamental science and what it shows about evolution and what it has discovered about the age of the earth. I think Creationism is an insane literal interpretation of Genesis. Anyway, my friend had apparently gone of the deep end with extreme Christianity and sent some others and me an e-mail sermon. I responded and the “discussion” began as follows. (Bert is in italic and my responses are in standard text) I think this an enlightening example of how literalist Bible thumpers respond to attempts at rational discussion.


Bert:
THE LORD'S BASEBALL GAME

Freddy and the Lord stood by to observe a baseball game. The Lord's team was playing Satan's team.
The Lord's team was at bat, the score was tied zero to zero, and it was the bottom of the 9th inning with two outs. They continued to watch as a batter stepped up to the plate whose name was Love. Love swung at the first pitch and hit asingle, because Love never fails. The next batter was named Faith, who also got a single because Faith works with Love. The next batter up was named Godly Wisdom. Satan wound up and threw the first pitch. Godly Wisdom looked it over and let it pass: Ball one. Three more pitches and Godly Wisdom walked, because Godly Wisdom never swings at what Satan throws. The bases were now loaded. The Lord then turned to Freddy and told him He was now going to bring in His star player. Up to the plate stepped Grace. Freddy said, "He sure doesn't look like much!"

Satan's whole team relaxed when they saw Grace. Thinking he had won the game, Satan wound up and fired his first pitch. To the shock of everyone, Grace hit the ball harder than anyone had ever seen. But Satan was not worried; his center fielder let very few get by. He went up for the ball, but it went right through his glove, hit him on the head and sent him crashing on the ground; then it continued over the fence for a home run! The Lord's team won!

The Lord then asked Freddy if he knew why Love, Faith, and Godly Wisdom could get on base but could not win the game. Freddy answered that he did not know why. The Lord explained, "If your love, faith, and wisdom had won the game you would think you had done it by yourself. Love, Faith and Wisdom will get
you on base but only My Grace can get you Home.

Psalm 84:11, "For the Lord God is a sun and shield; the Lord will give grace and glory; no good thing will He withhold from those who walk uprightly."
Jesus Test
This is an easy test, you score 100 or zero. It's your choice. If you aren't ashamed to do this, please follow the directions. Jesus said, "If you are ashamed of me, I will be ashamed of you before my Father."

Not ashamed Pass this on . . . only if you mean it.

Yes, I do Love God. He is my source of existence and Savior. He keeps me functioning each and everyday. Without Him, I am nothing, but with Him can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. Phil 4:13
This is the simplest test . . if you Love God, and are not ashamed of all the marvelous things he has done for you. Send this to ten people and the person who sent it to you!


Me:
G'day,
I usually do not discuss religion unless someone else brings it up first. Hard experience has taught me that most people cannot discuss such things and not get emotional (mad, etc.).
I consider myself a Christian. To me, that means attempting to follow the MAIN message of Jesus which is Love and Forgiveness. I do not consider the Bible to be inerrant or literal. It was written by men who transcribed stories that were carried through generations of verbal tradition. The bible is full of great stuff and it is also full of garbage ("happy are those who dash the little ones against the rocks" Psalms; "..have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter in law against her mother in law" Matt. 10:35-37 Just to note a couple) Volumes have been written about the inconsistencies, contradictions, and cruelties in the bible.
I have seen too many friends go off the deep end with extreme religion. They generally do things like dump old friends and alter their life in significant and sometimes damaging ways. They abandon logic, reason, and lose all sense of proportion. I hope this does not happen to you. I think you are a good-hearted person who has come through a hard year.
And so, there's a snippet of my opinion for what it's worth.

Stay loose and stay cool !!

C'ya,
Paul


Bert:
Paul,

I hardly think the Bible has any garbage in it. I have been a devout Christian for many years and have had severe issues with the way most people mock Creationism the whole time I've been in the grotto, I just kept it low key. I don't have time to go into details, but I will send you a note later. You must remember that you can't pick one verse out of the Bible and live your life on it (like bashing little children and such), you must look at what comes before and after it...And by the way, I have many scientific articles that show how caves and formations etc could exist in a young Earth, such as the one God DID create. Must run and get to work though...Talk to you soon....

Bert

Then another from Bert:
Paul,
In response to your quote from Matthew, what Christ is saying is that the true "love of your life" should be Him. Meaning that your father might not be a believer and denounce you becase you are (in essence turning man against his father). That's the way it still is today. The words of Christ should not be called garbage and should be taken in their full content, not just bits and pieces.

In response to Psalms, I haven't read it, but I will research it a little more. The overall thing here is to not try and take one line or phrase from the Bible and call it garbage. That would be like saying something to the effect of:

A warning label reads: " CAUTION: Do not eat this rat poison as it will kill you dead " and saying that only "eat this rat poison" should be taken to heart and all the other words are garbage...Where's the logic in that?

My feelings about Christ and Christianity have been here the whole time I have known you. It's not something new or anything. I have just not been vocal about them and it has really bothered me. Judging by your wording below, I guess you would classify me as an extremist. I believe what the Bible says and it says that you can't be lukewarm in your beliefs, you either believe it all or don't believe (to paraphrase) and no person shall take away or add to it's words (again, another paraphrase, but I can provide Scripture if you'd like).

I believe in Creation, young Earth, Christ, God, etc...These are my beliefs. I'm not forcing them upon you, just giving you my opinion on what the truth is as you gave me yours. I can only offer you a friend to talk to about such matters if you'd like. I'm always open for discussion. I guess I'll see ya around...

Bert


Me:
G'day,
See, I think I made you mad. I hope not though. I actually enjoy such discussions, but not at the expense of a friendship. I would be happy to continue such discourse, but only if you promise not to get mad at me. I admit, my views seem a bit extreme in regards to the Bible, however, this is something I have researched extensively over the years. Basically, I have been having a sort of gut reaction to all of the literalism (especially creationism) that is found in this region. I am a sort of layman scientist. I read science books and literature all the time. In recent years, I have followed the Creationism/Evolution argument very closely on the internet. There is a plethora of sites on the subject. Many people get very emotional about the subject. What I see is the extraordinary mountain of physical evidence from many disciplines such as geology, paleontology, archeology, and biology that shows that while we do not know everything, the fact of evolution is real just as the fact of a 4 billion old universe is equally real. The Genesis story in the Bible is just that... a story. It conveys lessons in the relationship between God and man and has many interesting and important concepts for us. When taken literally, it just does not make sense and does not jive with the physical facts all around us. Another example: Do you believe that the earth is flat and sits on four pillars with the "firmament" above with holes in it to let the rain in? Of course not. No sane person does. Galileo was persecuted by the church for stating that the earth was NOT the center of the universe as the Bible states. Of course, Galileo was correct.
When I take some statements such as the killing of babies, I do not think that taking out of context is a valid issue. I do not see any time or reason that justifies the killing of babies. Yet, such a statement appears a couple of times in the Bible. This is just one simple example, but there are many more. As I stated before, the Bible is simply a collection of books written by MEN. These stories were transcribed by different groups often many years or generations after the events took place. Such events were related in the verbal tradition, which is the telling of important events or lessons in story or parable form. The story form acted as a memory aid. This is another reason that literalism just does not make sense. Another important thing to remember, is that not all of the books written appear in the King James version of the Bible (for example, the Gospel of Thomas).
Of course I don't advocate tossing out the Bible, which would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It is a great source of tremendous wisdom. I believe we must use the minds God gave us to discern what is true and important.

Anyway, that's enough theology for tonight. Are we still friends? By the way, the main reason I responded to your original e-mail, was concern for you. As I have stated, I have seen many people go off the deep end with religion, much to their detriment. Just look at the crazy world today. Most of our wars and terrorist acts are related to extreme religious views of some sort. It has been like this throughout history.

Interesting stuff.

C'ya


Bert:
Paul,

Evolution was written by men too. It takes more faith to believe we just happened from a ball of puss then to believe creation. Yes, calling someone's religion and faith garbage will upset them. Interesting to note that Darwin himself denounced his writings saying the were just musings of a young man trying to find the meaning and purpose of life. You obviously didn't read what I said about taking a snippet of a sentence of Scripture and running with it only. Sure, we are still friends. I will be praying for you...


Bert


Me:
Hey,
I am sorry if I upset you. I should know better. I think religion is a subject of emotion and therefore is always a delicate thing to discuss. I would be happy to talk more about this or to just leave it alone.
Just a response about your note: Darwin did not denounce his writings. That is false propaganda produced by creationist groups such as the ICR. And anyway, the theory of evolution does not pass or fail on Darwin's writings. He simply introduced the theory with his observations. At his time he, of course, did not know what mechanism could possibly be at work to pass on traits. We now know about DNA, inherited traits, and mutations. First, understand what a scientific theory is: A scientist first comes up with a hypothesis on a subject. This is an "educated guess" of how something works. He then checks existing literature for any relevant studies. Then, he does his own research (archeological, biological, whatever). If the evidence of the research supports his idea, he then develops a theory, which is a statement of how something works supported by the data. Then he publishes the information so it may be subjected to peer review. In this way, other scientists can review his work for flaws and comment if necessary. This is how scientific work is self-correcting. As new information becomes available, theories can be revised, supported, or even rejected. Another example of a theory is electron theory. No one has ever seen an electron (or any other sub-atomic particle). Even so, nobody believes electrons do not exist. The evidence supports the theory. Such is the case for evolution and other old earth theories. This does not conflict with religion unless one takes the story of Genesis literally. Evolution does not say God did not have a hand in Creation. In fact, it does not say anything at all about God since that is Theology, not science.

Finally, I must admit to being rather depressed by this turn of events with you. I have seen this too many times. I have watched people close their minds to reason, discard friends, disrupt families and so on all in the name of religion. It's like watch the lights go out in a bright city. I will understand if you do not wish to discuss this any further. We can agree to disagree and leave it at that. Just remember, you first opened the subject with an e-mail sermon to me. My beliefs are just as strong, or even stronger than yours. I am not afraid to question, discuss, and probe new ideas. Nor, am I afraid to defend my convictions in what I know is true. At the same time I readily admit that I obviously do not know everything and am always searching for new information. To me, religion and science are both interesting and vastly important. Science is not dogma and is not always right. Religion (any religion) should also not be taken as dogma and should always be open to questions and investigation.

Hang in there.

C'ya


Bert:
Paul,

This is not recent. It has been here the whole time I've known you. How many times do I have to repeat that. I just wasn't vocal about it. A good book you should read would be Scientific Creationism. I agree to disagree and table this subject.

Bert

Me:
Okay, that's cool. We'll talk no more theology unless you ever want to. Even then, we should do it together in a sit down so we can trade information more easily. I think e-mail has a lot of disadvantages for this type of thing. And also, e-mail can often miss-convey the writer’s true intent.
I do hope you continue caving with us (at least some). We all enjoy your company and your jokes. And of course, we still have so many unfinished surveys! We especially need you on that tight stuff that you and Robbie do so well.
Today, Gary and I helped friends do some moving. Their new place is on a lakeside south of Elizabethton and it is really nice. I am not sure if you know them since they have not been very active in the last couple of years (in caving that is). Also, this weekend is a training session, but I doubt if you would have time for anything like that with the wedding coming up so soon. I doubt if I will make it either, since I have to go to a gallery to set up some pottery. Busy, busy, busy.

C'ya


That’s the end of the discussion. I have not heard from him since. He followed the classic style of argument as I have seen before, everything from dodging the original subject to the always present and condescending “I will pray for you” statement. It comes down to this: Religious beliefs are based on emotion and not logic or reason. A debate about science or literalism (from a rationalist’s point of view) requires logic and reason, which the literalist has abandoned. For the rationalist, it is a no-win situation. In this case, I think I have lost yet another friend to extreme religion.

Tercel

Hey Caverdude, welcome to the Sec-Web (or as welcome as us liberal Christians can ever be here).

Reading your post almost sounded like an autobiography of my own experiences with my friends, save I've gathered enough hints from my friends to know that explaining to them why they are wrong would not be a good idea.

There's no point in arguing with him, and it looks like you know enough that you should know better.

Look at his reaction to your points. His response was not a logical one of considering whether you really had a point, but one of immediate defensiveness by trying to prove you wrong. He's not interested in finding out whether you're right or wrong, but only why it is that you're wrong: He's simply assumed the truth of his beliefs. You're not going to get anywhere.
Making the observation that literalism is false is something he has to do for himself.

Even if you were to convince him that literalism is false it may not be a good thing: He might lose his faith entirely. These boards have plenty of people who upon finding out literalism was bunk lost their faith. (The second reason I don't want to try it on my own friends) I don't know why it is, but some people can only see religion as black or white with no shades of grey allowed.

I'm not sure I can relate to religious extremism causing loss of friends, family etc. The vast majority of my friends have always been extreme literalists and I've never noticed any problems (save stupidity when it comes to critically assessing religious propaganda of course).

PS
Don't you just hate the "you're not a real Christian: I'll be praying for you" attitude that we get from such people? It makes me sad when I get the same from atheists though.

Autonemesis

Atheists say they will pray for you? Huh....?

Caverdude

Hey Tercel,
Thanks for the reply. You are, of course, correct in that I should not argue with literalists in such a manner. I usually do not initiate such discussions, but sometimes when I get a sermon thrown at me, I simply am driven to respond in some way. Also, like you, I have some friends who are rather extreme in their literalist views, however, we sort of understand that we differ vastly in opinions and simply do not discuss the subject. It is dissapointing that these things cannot always be discussed openly without rancor. In fact, that is why I joined this website...so I can get into a rational discourse with people who might have other opinions. I understand there are many atheists on these forums (I consider myself a very liberal Christian), which is cool to me. I am sure there will be many interesting discussions to come.

Hey, this is America!!! Freedom of religion and all that. (or freedom FROM religion if you prefer)

C'ya

sbaii

sbaii

Hey, caverdude! Why do you consider yourself a Christian? You know you can be a pacificist and an ethical person without being a Christian. It must be the heaven thing, right?

Caverdude

Hey Sbaii,
A good question. One thing I have learned is that religious beliefs are not based on logic, but emotion. I suppose a little history is in order here: I was raised a Catholic. My beliefs at during my childhood were dictated by the church. They did not encourage reading of the bible, but instead presented their interpretations that they insisted were THE way. After I got to college, I slowly became disenchanted with the Catholic church and their strict teachings. Only in recent years (I am now 45 years old) have I researched the bible and tried to learn things for myself. My first discovery was that I found the bible to be full of errors, contradictions, and even cruelties. Even so, I still hang on to some of the teachings of the New Testament, primarily the teachings of Jesus which concern forgiveness and love. This is purely an emotional response. I guess I simply like those ideas. Consider, many people are drawn to spiritual teachings such as Zen, Buddism, and so forth simply because they gain some sort of comfort in the lessons. I cannot give any rational or logical reason for anyone to hold to the beliefs that I have in regards to the teachings of Jesus. As I said, I guess it just gives me comfort. And really, is that such a bad thing?
In all other ways, I am a rationalist. I detest literal interpretations of the Bible and I especially detest Creationism. Understand, I fully agree with people's right to believe such things, but these days creationists are very political and are attempting to warp our schools and laws to their views. This is where I step up and oppose them whenever and wherever I can.
Not much of an answer, I know, but that is a brief description of my thinking. Does it make any sense to you?

C'ya

Caverdude

Sbaii,
Oh yes, one other thought. Your are absolutely correct that one can be ethical and moral without religion. In fact, these concepts are based on culture, not religion. Just look at the history of Christianity. Different times produced different moral interpretations, many of which we now consider to be abhorrent (such as the sacrificing of animals or slavery). Generally I attempt to guide my life decisions on four basic principles: Honor, Integrity, Respect, and Ethics. Just words, I know, but words with great meaning and power. I suppose I could add one more: Love. Pretty basic, huh?

Tercel

I would have thought it obvious that second part doesn't apply to atheists... as you have duely noted.

Tercel

Hmmm, I don't like it when people use this excuse. In trying to reduce your own responsibility by blaming your actions on others, all you are actually doing is tricking yourself into thinking that you don't have control over your own actions. But you do. You're not a robot: You choose your own actions and nobody else chooses them for you. Sorry to preach at you -hopefully it won't scare you away- but this is one of my chief beefs: Sure you can't control your feelings on whether you like what someone is doing, but what you can control is how you respond to your feelings.

Most of my literalist friends do not know I'm a liberal, and the couple that know I'm not a dedicated fundamentalist do not know just how liberal I am. I suppose I'm afraid to tell them in case it damages our friendships: I know most of them thorough Church-related things and I'm pretty certain most of them would think that I am not a real Christian.

I joined this website to find out what the rational arguments against Christianity were, as I see belief as primarily a rational thing... well, okay, not always... but I like to know the extent to which Christian belief is rationally defensible.

Yeah there are a few atheists about now and then. From reading your posts in this thread, I think it's possible you're a tiny bit more liberal than me, though it looks pretty close.
I like your "I think most of the Old Testament is full of bunk": It so perfectly sums up what I've taken pages of writing to explain in the past.

Hmmm... interesting in what way precisely? Oh well, you'll find out shortly.
Just a serious word of warning: If you've come here looking for open-minded people you have come to the wrong place. Most here are as open-minded as the literalists. You will see what I mean shortly, if you haven't already.

Speak for yourself! :b