Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Jack the Bodiless · 07-09-2002, 02:16 AM

From the KJV:

Quote:

Genesis 38:8-10 And Judah said unto Onan, Go in unto thy brother's wife, and marry her, and raise up seed to thy brother. And Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, lest that he should give seed to his brother. And the thing which he did displeased the LORD: wherefore he slew him also.

This is traditionally interpreted by Christians as justifying a prohibition on masturbation, and even (according to some) birth control. But it can just as easily be read as "God killed Onan because he refused to have sex with his brother's widow".

If masturbation is prohibited, then why isn't it specifically listed as an "abomination" in Leviticus etc?

I'm curious about the phrase "And Onan knew that the seed should not be his". Is that an accurate translation? How do other Bibles translate it? If God decrees what is right and wrong, how could Onan "know" that the seed should not be his, and that God was wrong? What sort of code was Onan following?

It's not at all clear what the "sin of Onan" actually is. Masturbation, birth control, failure to impregnate brother's widow, or adherence to an independent moral code? Or was God just having a bad day?

King Arthur · 07-09-2002, 02:42 AM

Onan's sin had nothing to do with masturbation.

His sin had to do with the fact that he did not fulfill the duties of a levirite marriage (I think that's the right name).

There are laws in the OT which perhaps someone else can point that say that if your brother dies and leaves behind a childless wife, you are to join with his wife in a leverite marriage for the sole purpose of giving her the children she wasn't able to have.

So, instead of getting her pregnant, he "spilled his seed" and got in BIG trouble for not fulfilling his duties to his brother's wife. This is also the reason that Onan "knew" that he was in trouble.

[ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]

Jack the Bodiless · 07-09-2002, 02:51 AM

Yes, I suspected that the masturbation thing was a crock. Failure to impregnate his brother's widow makes more sense.

But the Bible doesn't mention why Onan didn't do his duty. OK, maybe he just didn't get along with his sister-in-law, but I wouldn't have written that as "Onan knew that the seed should not be his".

King Arthur · 07-09-2002, 02:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless:
Yes, I suspected that the masturbation thing was a crock. Failure to impregnate his brother's widow makes more sense.

I think that most Christians who really know the Bible (even some/many fundamentalists) will tell you that this has nothing to do with masturbation and everything to do with the non-fulfillment of the leverite marriage.

Quote:

But the Bible doesn't mention why Onan didn't do his duty. OK, maybe he just didn't get along with his sister-in-law, but I wouldn't have written that as "Onan knew that the seed should not be his".

Sure it said:
"...and it came to pass, when he went in unto his brother's wife, that he spilled it on the ground, **lest that he should give seed to his brother.**"

I suppose its not incredibly clear, but apparently, Onan didn't like the idea that he should provide an heir for his brother.

Jack the Bodiless · 07-09-2002, 03:18 AM

...Hmmm. Maybe "Onan knew that the seed should not be his" means that Onan knew that his own seed would not be regarded as his own, but as if it came from his brother: that it WOULD not be his, legally.

However, this same rule would absolve Onan from any responsibility for raising the kid. It only makes sense if Onan had a motive for ensuring that his brother remained legally childless. Maybe an inheritance issue: splitting the estate of Onan's father between Onan's legitimate kids and "his brother's" kids.

butswana · 07-09-2002, 09:04 AM

It's nothing without the money shot. I prefer the abdomen or chest rather than just cranking it out on the ground though.

Mediancat · 07-09-2002, 10:07 AM

Dorothy Parker named her pet bird Onan. Why? Because, well, he . . . spilled his seed all over the ground.

Rob aka Mediancat

07-09-2002, 10:39 AM

To quote Monty Python:

Quote:

Let the heathen spill theirs on the dusty ground;
God will make them pay for each sperm that can't be found

Ron Garrett · 07-09-2002, 11:24 AM

On a slightly serious note: there is a strain of Judaism that sees wasted seed and abortion as robbing the nation. Keep in mind that nomadic tribes had high rates of attrition due to war, famine, illness, etc. Thus the constant raiding of each others territories for food, women.

Replenishing lost members was essential to survival of the tribe, thus the negative view of wasted seed and barren women.

Grumpy · 07-09-2002, 01:37 PM

If anything, the Onan story is a condemnation of birth control, albeit natural birth control. So I wonder if there's anything in the Bible about the rhythm method, a.k.a. Vatican Roulette.

07-09-2002, 02:42 AM	#2
King Arthur Banned Join Date: May 2002 Location: Camelot Posts: 290	Onan's sin had nothing to do with masturbation. His sin had to do with the fact that he did not fulfill the duties of a levirite marriage (I think that's the right name). There are laws in the OT which perhaps someone else can point that say that if your brother dies and leaves behind a childless wife, you are to join with his wife in a leverite marriage for the sole purpose of giving her the children she wasn't able to have. So, instead of getting her pregnant, he "spilled his seed" and got in BIG trouble for not fulfilling his duties to his brother's wife. This is also the reason that Onan "knew" that he was in trouble. [ July 09, 2002: Message edited by: King Arthur ]</p>

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

07-09-2002, 02:51 AM	#3
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	Yes, I suspected that the masturbation thing was a crock. Failure to impregnate his brother's widow makes more sense. But the Bible doesn't mention why Onan didn't do his duty. OK, maybe he just didn't get along with his sister-in-law, but I wouldn't have written that as "Onan knew that the seed should not be his".

07-09-2002, 03:18 AM	#5
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	...Hmmm. Maybe "Onan knew that the seed should not be his" means that Onan knew that his own seed would not be regarded as his own, but as if it came from his brother: that it WOULD not be his, legally. However, this same rule would absolve Onan from any responsibility for raising the kid. It only makes sense if Onan had a motive for ensuring that his brother remained legally childless. Maybe an inheritance issue: splitting the estate of Onan's father between Onan's legitimate kids and "his brother's" kids.

07-09-2002, 09:04 AM	#6
butswana Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,804	It's nothing without the money shot. I prefer the abdomen or chest rather than just cranking it out on the ground though.

07-09-2002, 10:07 AM	#7
Mediancat Contributor Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Baltimore County, MD Posts: 19,644	Dorothy Parker named her pet bird Onan. Why? Because, well, he . . . spilled his seed all over the ground. Rob aka Mediancat

07-09-2002, 11:24 AM	#9
Ron Garrett Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: United States Posts: 1,657	On a slightly serious note: there is a strain of Judaism that sees wasted seed and abortion as robbing the nation. Keep in mind that nomadic tribes had high rates of attrition due to war, famine, illness, etc. Thus the constant raiding of each others territories for food, women. Replenishing lost members was essential to survival of the tribe, thus the negative view of wasted seed and barren women.

07-09-2002, 01:37 PM	#10
Grumpy Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Alaska, USA Posts: 1,535	If anything, the Onan story is a condemnation of birth control, albeit natural birth control. So I wonder if there's anything in the Bible about the rhythm method, a.k.a. Vatican Roulette.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.