Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Arken · 07-03-2003, 06:42 PM

There is a thrift store down the street from my office and I do go in there from time to time to buy things because I'm generally a frugal person and I like a bargain... but the thrift store is owned by a group called 'Backstreet Missions' and they are clearly a fundamentalist Christian group, although they do use the money at least in part to help the homeless. There are bible quotes everywhere, they play the local Christian rock station all the time, all the people who work there are church volunteers, etc.

My question is- as an atheist, is it ethical for me to give them money? I always feel conflicted by this because on the one hand, I wonder if I should care at all, especially since I'm indirectly helping homeless people but on the other, I feel like I am helping to fund an institution which I don't want to exist in the first place (churches, not helping the homeless.)

Of course, I know that there is no right or wrong answer to this question, but I would like to hear people's thoughts on the matter.

nermal · 07-03-2003, 07:42 PM

I don't see this as an ethical question. It's more an issue of self interest (I know, some don't make the distinction). Certainly giving them money in exchange for goods is not wrong per se, but if they use that money in ways that might annoy you, then you may not want to shop there.
Then again, they are using that money to spread their religion to those who might otherwise be better off...Damn! That screws everything up.
Bottom line: If you sincerely believe by converting people they are doing them harm, then you shouldn't support their efforts. For instance, if they are funding missionaries to destroy the cultures of indigenous people in South America, say, then you should definitely not give them your money.
If, on the other hand, you find their activities simply annoying, then weigh that annoyance against the bargains they offer, and act accordingly.

Ed

The Other Michael · 07-03-2003, 08:57 PM

Hi Ed,

I basically agree with you, though I think it can be an ethical question - does the self-benefit outweigh the support of something I find wrong seems like an ethical question to me.

The "correct" answer will obviously vary from person to person. Some will find no problem with supporting a group they don't like as long as it is incidental to the rest of the transaction, but just where that support becomes a significant concern will depend on how strongly the person feels about the group.

A more extreme example is deciding whether to buy a paper from a paperboy that you know is a devout (insert group you have problems with here) who is also the sole support of his aged parent. As a devout X he is likely to divert at least a portion of the profit he makes to X, but if the lion's share of the money is going to keeping the aged parent in gruel, maybe it is OK to buy the paper from him instead of the wealthy non-X shopkeeper down the way.

cheers,
Michael

Arken · 07-03-2003, 09:15 PM

That is exactly my conundrum, Michael. I'm not sure which is really the better path to take for myself. On the one hand, I am personally benefitting and my money is doing at least some good, but on the other hand, I'm giving money to an organization that I consider to be generally detrimental to society. It's a very tough call.

exnihilo · 07-03-2003, 09:46 PM

I have questioned myself about this question as I buy books at thriftstores on a weekly basis. One thing I found that makes it easier for me is to do a little creative mischief. For example, often at thrift stores you can buy books for ridiculously low prices, like 10 cent sales and such. When they would have such sales along with the books I was buying for my own collection I would also buy a few bibles and other religious oriented crap. some of which is quite morbidly interesting. Buying a stack odf bibles usually caused a few raised eyebrows from the clerks as my style of dress doesn't exactly portray me a "good christian boy". Usually after getting a good sized stack for reletively nothing me and some friends would have a little bible burning party and take photos, a friend built a very cool cross made of bible bolted and screwed together--which kinda relieved us of our guilt for shopping at a christian establishment. Another thing I would do is slide religious books under the bottom shelf, usually the metal shelves they use has a small hollow arae under them which cannot be accessed. It is the perfect and appropriate place for such materials anyhow and there they are not able to do anymore harm to young and vulnerable minds.
I know burnign bibles may sound a bit childish, but it is oh so much fun. Obviusly, there are countless uses that bibles can be put to by creative people when they put their thinking caps on...

--exnihilo

Odemus · 07-03-2003, 10:31 PM

Next time you're there purchase a dictionary and try to resist the urge to set it on fire.

Queen of Swords · 07-04-2003, 07:08 AM

Heck, I don't just go to a Christian thrift store, I volunteer there!

Mind you, as a volunteer, I get first pick of the donations that people give to the store - lots of stylish clothes, plenty of books. And it's not as overtly Christian a place as Arken's. They play pop music, and the only items that were ever banned from the shelves were 1. books on witches 2. a T-shirt which featured the legend "The Rubber Band" and had a picture of three condoms playing guitars.

exnihilo · 07-05-2003, 05:52 PM

Burn a bible save a life is my motto. Dictionaries are quite the opposite, they have a usefulness that eludes the bible.

abe smith · 07-07-2003, 10:46 AM

An option that might help solve your ethical dilemma could be to continue to thrift-shop (the rational, frugal, environmentally-responsible thing to do. Kate Hepburn was one of Us, btw.) and switch your custom to a thrift-store which is 'secular", if you can find one (There are such.) or um START YOUR OWN thrift store?
Certainly, IMO, thrift-shop/ping has everything in its favor. JUST BE SURE YOU WASH thoroughly and DRY HOT the linens & clothes you buy there.
Possibly also, limiting the amount you spend at "religious" thrift stores (Only buy a narrow range of "non-luxury" items....
I'm not sure what my rationale for this advice is?) might make your act less "immoral". Possibly, the true spirit of (holy) poverty, which you don't have to be a religionist to practise! wd limit spending money to stuff you *really* need.
I didn't come here to preach....

ohwilleke · 07-07-2003, 05:24 PM

In my mind the ethical question with thrift stores is more like the ethical question involved in going to a soup kitchen that doesn't screen for eligibility when you can afford your own food. You are taking scarce resources (cheap clothes) away from those who really need them.

I wouldn't be inclined to shop at a store like that in any case, but I guess I would consider it more of a political decision than an ethical one.

07-03-2003, 06:42 PM	#1
Arken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 6,303	Ethics question - Thrift store shopping There is a thrift store down the street from my office and I do go in there from time to time to buy things because I'm generally a frugal person and I like a bargain... but the thrift store is owned by a group called 'Backstreet Missions' and they are clearly a fundamentalist Christian group, although they do use the money at least in part to help the homeless. There are bible quotes everywhere, they play the local Christian rock station all the time, all the people who work there are church volunteers, etc. My question is- as an atheist, is it ethical for me to give them money? I always feel conflicted by this because on the one hand, I wonder if I should care at all, especially since I'm indirectly helping homeless people but on the other, I feel like I am helping to fund an institution which I don't want to exist in the first place (churches, not helping the homeless.) Of course, I know that there is no right or wrong answer to this question, but I would like to hear people's thoughts on the matter.

07-03-2003, 09:46 PM	#5
exnihilo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: in the Desert (not really) Tucson Posts: 335	thriftstore values I have questioned myself about this question as I buy books at thriftstores on a weekly basis. One thing I found that makes it easier for me is to do a little creative mischief. For example, often at thrift stores you can buy books for ridiculously low prices, like 10 cent sales and such. When they would have such sales along with the books I was buying for my own collection I would also buy a few bibles and other religious oriented crap. some of which is quite morbidly interesting. Buying a stack odf bibles usually caused a few raised eyebrows from the clerks as my style of dress doesn't exactly portray me a "good christian boy". Usually after getting a good sized stack for reletively nothing me and some friends would have a little bible burning party and take photos, a friend built a very cool cross made of bible bolted and screwed together--which kinda relieved us of our guilt for shopping at a christian establishment. Another thing I would do is slide religious books under the bottom shelf, usually the metal shelves they use has a small hollow arae under them which cannot be accessed. It is the perfect and appropriate place for such materials anyhow and there they are not able to do anymore harm to young and vulnerable minds. I know burnign bibles may sound a bit childish, but it is oh so much fun. Obviusly, there are countless uses that bibles can be put to by creative people when they put their thinking caps on... --exnihilo

07-05-2003, 05:52 PM	#8
exnihilo Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: in the Desert (not really) Tucson Posts: 335	Burning bibles Burn a bible save a life is my motto. Dictionaries are quite the opposite, they have a usefulness that eludes the bible.

07-07-2003, 10:46 AM	#9
abe smith Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: springfield, MA. USA Posts: 2,482	Thrift-shop shopping An option that might help solve your ethical dilemma could be to continue to thrift-shop (the rational, frugal, environmentally-responsible thing to do. Kate Hepburn was one of Us, btw.) and switch your custom to a thrift-store which is 'secular", if you can find one (There are such.) or um START YOUR OWN thrift store? Certainly, IMO, thrift-shop/ping has everything in its favor. JUST BE SURE YOU WASH thoroughly and DRY HOT the linens & clothes you buy there. Possibly also, limiting the amount you spend at "religious" thrift stores (Only buy a narrow range of "non-luxury" items.... I'm not sure what my rationale for this advice is?) might make your act less "immoral". Possibly, the true spirit of (holy) poverty, which you don't have to be a religionist to practise! wd limit spending money to stuff you really need. I didn't come here to preach....

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07-03-2003, 07:42 PM	#2
nermal Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,969	I don't see this as an ethical question. It's more an issue of self interest (I know, some don't make the distinction). Certainly giving them money in exchange for goods is not wrong per se, but if they use that money in ways that might annoy you, then you may not want to shop there. Then again, they are using that money to spread their religion to those who might otherwise be better off...Damn! That screws everything up. Bottom line: If you sincerely believe by converting people they are doing them harm, then you shouldn't support their efforts. For instance, if they are funding missionaries to destroy the cultures of indigenous people in South America, say, then you should definitely not give them your money. If, on the other hand, you find their activities simply annoying, then weigh that annoyance against the bargains they offer, and act accordingly. Ed

07-03-2003, 08:57 PM	#3
The Other Michael Honorary Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: In the fog of San Francisco Posts: 12,631	Hi Ed, I basically agree with you, though I think it can be an ethical question - does the self-benefit outweigh the support of something I find wrong seems like an ethical question to me. The "correct" answer will obviously vary from person to person. Some will find no problem with supporting a group they don't like as long as it is incidental to the rest of the transaction, but just where that support becomes a significant concern will depend on how strongly the person feels about the group. A more extreme example is deciding whether to buy a paper from a paperboy that you know is a devout (insert group you have problems with here) who is also the sole support of his aged parent. As a devout X he is likely to divert at least a portion of the profit he makes to X, but if the lion's share of the money is going to keeping the aged parent in gruel, maybe it is OK to buy the paper from him instead of the wealthy non-X shopkeeper down the way. cheers, Michael

07-03-2003, 09:15 PM	#4
Arken Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 6,303	That is exactly my conundrum, Michael. I'm not sure which is really the better path to take for myself. On the one hand, I am personally benefitting and my money is doing at least some good, but on the other hand, I'm giving money to an organization that I consider to be generally detrimental to society. It's a very tough call.

07-03-2003, 10:31 PM	#6
Odemus Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Easy Street Posts: 736	Next time you're there purchase a dictionary and try to resist the urge to set it on fire.

07-04-2003, 07:08 AM	#7
Queen of Swords Contributor Join Date: Nov 2000 Location: Canada. Finally. Posts: 10,155	Heck, I don't just go to a Christian thrift store, I volunteer there! Mind you, as a volunteer, I get first pick of the donations that people give to the store - lots of stylish clothes, plenty of books. And it's not as overtly Christian a place as Arken's. They play pop music, and the only items that were ever banned from the shelves were 1. books on witches 2. a T-shirt which featured the legend "The Rubber Band" and had a picture of three condoms playing guitars.

07-07-2003, 05:24 PM	#10
ohwilleke Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Denver, Colorado, USA Posts: 4,834	In my mind the ethical question with thrift stores is more like the ethical question involved in going to a soup kitchen that doesn't screen for eligibility when you can afford your own food. You are taking scarce resources (cheap clothes) away from those who really need them. I wouldn't be inclined to shop at a store like that in any case, but I guess I would consider it more of a political decision than an ethical one.

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