Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Bobzammel · 03-31-2003, 03:53 PM

In many of the more fringe Christian group, the concept of "Death to self" is explored. Basically it asks for the believer to put themselves entirely in the trust of God, without caring at all about their own life. A number of essays regarding this are located at the lower end of the frame of www.discipleship.net, as well as countless "anti-denomination" websites. Strangely though, the concept of "Death to self" is never stated directly in the bible, although there are similar words used in Jesus's sayings on discipleship and in some of Paul's stuff.
I'm wondering what people think of this doctrine? Is it a noble moral, or one of the more cultish and potentially dangerous teachings of Christianity?

spurly · 03-31-2003, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel
In many of the more fringe Christian group, the concept of "Death to self" is explored. Basically it asks for the believer to put themselves entirely in the trust of God, without caring at all about their own life. A number of essays regarding this are located at the lower end of the frame of www.discipleship.net, as well as countless "anti-denomination" websites. Strangely though, the concept of "Death to self" is never stated directly in the bible, although there are similar words used in Jesus's sayings on discipleship and in some of Paul's stuff.
I'm wondering what people think of this doctrine? Is it a noble moral, or one of the more cultish and potentially dangerous teachings of Christianity?

Jesus said:

"If any would would come after me he must deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow me".

When the ancients thought of picking up your cross, the one thing they automatically thought of is going out to the place of execution to be killed. That's what crosses were used for. They weren't ornamental jewelry or magic pieces to keep dracula away, they were instruments of a torturous death.

So what did Jesus mean when he tells his followers to deny themselves, and take up their cross, and follow him? I think he is telling us that we have to put the needs of God and the needs of others over our own needs. That insted of our life revolving around ourselves, it revolves around God.

We can follow the example of Jesus in doing this because he is the ultimate model. He considered the needs of humanity and the needs of the Father to be greater than his own needs. We must do the same.

As John the Baptist said, He must increase, I must decrease.

Kevin

Bobzammel · 03-31-2003, 05:30 PM

Helping others is fine, but one should at least care *a little* for one self. After all, if you don't first love yourself a little, how can you possibly love others? Jesus was pretty full of himself, after all.

spurly · 03-31-2003, 05:33 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel
Helping others is fine, but one should at least care *a little* for one self. After all, if you don't first love yourself a little, how can you possibly love others? Jesus was pretty full of himself, after all.

Actually, quite the contrary is true. Jesus emptied himself and became nothing to serve others.

For me the healthy way to do this is to try to get to the point where I don't think of myself at all. That way I am totally focusing on who God is and how to love him and others I come into contact with.

Kevin

Bobzammel · 03-31-2003, 05:36 PM

Demanding others to follow you and worship you and accept you as their only authority, calling your disciples "Slaves"(Which is what is usually translated as servant in the PC biblical translations) and being in control of all the nations with a "Rod of Iron" with "your enemies at your footstool" is not exactly humble.

I do what I can to help others; I give to the poor on a regular basis. But I can't be perfect! You cannot nullify the emotional and physical needs of the body to the extent to which these people seem to demand. All I've noticed from preachers who preach "death to self" is a load of selfishness. The same sites boast about how "righteous" their ministry is....

Eudaimonist · 03-31-2003, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bobzammel
In many of the more fringe Christian group, the concept of "Death to self" is explored. Basically it asks for the believer to put themselves entirely in the trust of God, without caring at all about their own life. [...] I'm wondering what people think of this doctrine? Is it a noble moral, or one of the more cultish and potentially dangerous teachings of Christianity?

My response to this depends on how they interpret the word "self". If they mean evil desires, it sounds fine. If they mean that you should be completely uncaring about your own life and well-being, it sounds like a recipe for dangerous fanaticism and self-destructiveness. (Don't get me started on self-sacrifice as a moral ideal. I tend to agree with Ayn Rand and Nietzsche about what is wrong with this.)

Magus55 · 03-31-2003, 07:39 PM

Jesus was the epitome of humility. The Almighty, Creator of the Universe, He that always was, always is, and always will be, lowered Himself below the angels by entering the flesh, and dwelt among sinners, as a servent and carpenter. He endured being being beaten, tortured, insulted, ridiculed, laughed at, humiliated, and ultimately killed by His own creation.

Can't get any more humble than that.

winstonjen · 03-31-2003, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Magus55
Jesus was the epitome of humility. The Almighty, Creator of the Universe, He that always was, always is, and always will be, lowered Himself below the angels by entering the flesh, and dwelt among sinners, as a servent and carpenter.

Can't get any more humble than that.

Then why didn't he stay here serving us for eternity? Now it's - "RIGHT! I CAME DOWN FOR 30-ODD YEARS (NOTHING FOR AN OMNIPOTENT BEING, BUT STILL), NOW WORSHIP ME OR BURN IN HELL FOREVER!"

And he certainly did not put himself below us - in fact, the opposite - he had all these superpowers we don't have.

spurly · 03-31-2003, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by winstonjen
Then why didn't he stay here serving us for eternity? Now it's - "RIGHT! I CAME DOWN FOR 30-ODD YEARS (NOTHING FOR AN OMNIPOTENT BEING, BUT STILL), NOW WORSHIP ME OR BURN IN HELL FOREVER!"

And he certainly did not put himself below us - in fact, the opposite - he had all these superpowers we don't have.

He is down here serving us and loving us for eternity - just not in physical form. His blood is still flowing to cover any of us just like Adam and Eve were covered in the Garden.

He sent his Holy Spirit after he left. He didn't want to leave us as orphans. His Spirit teaches us, guides us, strengthens us and comforts us.

He is still here loving us as much as he did then.

Kevin

Goliath · 03-31-2003, 07:56 PM

spurly,

Can you repost your latest reply in this thread? Nothing of substance came through, only unsupported assertions.

Sincerely,

Goliath

03-31-2003, 03:53 PM	#1
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Christian doctrine of "death to self" In many of the more fringe Christian group, the concept of "Death to self" is explored. Basically it asks for the believer to put themselves entirely in the trust of God, without caring at all about their own life. A number of essays regarding this are located at the lower end of the frame of www.discipleship.net, as well as countless "anti-denomination" websites. Strangely though, the concept of "Death to self" is never stated directly in the bible, although there are similar words used in Jesus's sayings on discipleship and in some of Paul's stuff. I'm wondering what people think of this doctrine? Is it a noble moral, or one of the more cultish and potentially dangerous teachings of Christianity?

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03-31-2003, 05:30 PM	#3
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Helping others is fine, but one should at least care a little for one self. After all, if you don't first love yourself a little, how can you possibly love others? Jesus was pretty full of himself, after all.

03-31-2003, 05:36 PM	#5
Bobzammel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Boston Posts: 276	Demanding others to follow you and worship you and accept you as their only authority, calling your disciples "Slaves"(Which is what is usually translated as servant in the PC biblical translations) and being in control of all the nations with a "Rod of Iron" with "your enemies at your footstool" is not exactly humble. I do what I can to help others; I give to the poor on a regular basis. But I can't be perfect! You cannot nullify the emotional and physical needs of the body to the extent to which these people seem to demand. All I've noticed from preachers who preach "death to self" is a load of selfishness. The same sites boast about how "righteous" their ministry is....

03-31-2003, 07:39 PM	#7
Magus55 Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: USA Posts: 7,204	Jesus was the epitome of humility. The Almighty, Creator of the Universe, He that always was, always is, and always will be, lowered Himself below the angels by entering the flesh, and dwelt among sinners, as a servent and carpenter. He endured being being beaten, tortured, insulted, ridiculed, laughed at, humiliated, and ultimately killed by His own creation. Can't get any more humble than that.

03-31-2003, 07:56 PM	#10
Goliath Banned Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Fargo, ND, USA Posts: 1,849	spurly, Can you repost your latest reply in this thread? Nothing of substance came through, only unsupported assertions. Sincerely, Goliath

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